Monk Changes Discussion

Discussion in 'Monk' started by ARCHIVED-BChizzle, Jul 16, 2010.

  1. ARCHIVED-BChizzle Guest

    Monks are currently the 5th best tank choice, or in other words second last. The one thing we could at least hold on to was that at least we were better then guardians. With guardians changing we will find ourselves in that familiar place of worst choice for tank that has been our home for the last 5 years. Here are my suggestions to fix this class (some fixes will help bruisers too).
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    BRAWLER SECTION:
    Brawler's tenacity
    BChizzle - needs to be a maintained buff, the second trigger can run for 45 seconds once the first trigger goes off. Gives you incentive to have 2 triggers plus keeps it different enough then bloodletter.
    Ambrin - Make both ranks of this buff last until cancelled.
    Cranetwirl
    BChizzle - needs to have it's proc rate increased to 50% to offset this increase in the proc rate feel free not to allow the proc rate to be altered by proc increasers, but it is completely unfair that this skill only works right for the select few who have the not available in game proc increasing gear slots (Anashti's charm, Bracelet of Trickster). The damage on it should also be looked at. Even at max proc rate cranetwirl doesn't even DPS outparse skills like grave sacrement which also have taunts attached, how exactly is this supposed to be our best ae agro tool? Cranetwirl should also proc on spell hits and not just melee ones.
    Pressure Point, Baton Flurry, Mantis Star, Crane Sweep, Eagle Spin(more on this one next)
    BChizzle - our damage AA's need their damage output doubled, they simply don't do enough damage.
    Eagle Spin
    BChizzle - this AA needs to have the spin portion removed from it we are tanks we shouldn't be spinning mobs so they can frontal the group and screw up dps classes positional DPS. My suggestion is you remove the spin portion of the AA and replace it with a snare that activates once the root runs out.
    Altruism
    BChizzle - this skill needs to somehow stack with other Death Intervention abilities. Even that is a stretch to make it useful.
    Ambrin - Change this to a maintained group buff that adds 5% crit bonus and potency to the group.
    Monkey Wisdom
    Ambrin - Have each rank add 1% ability casting, recovery, and reuse speed to Altruism
    Eagle Shriek
    Vinka - Needs to be a clicky instead of triggering below 50% hp. No tank in a group or raid will ever be below 50% hp for any reasonable length of time
    Ambrin - Change it so that it triggers at 60% health. Change it so that when it triggers, it lasts for 30 seconds even if the brawler goes above 60% health. If the brawler is still under 60% health when this expires it should automatically recast itself.
    Eagle's Patience
    Vinka - Needs to purchaseable without Eagle shriek and should work even if above 50% hp. Again, no brawler will ever be below 50% hp for any reasonable length of time.
    Ambrin - Remove the upper health requirement of this ability. Make this ability passively proc when Eagle Shriek activates (1 rank adds 1 stoneskin, 2 ranks ads an additional stoneskin). Limit this ability so Eagle's Patience will only activate once every 30s (if two ranks both stoneskin triggers can go off with no time limit)
    Feign Death
    Ambrin - Give Feign death a 100% success rate
    Crane Sweep
    Rasttan - reuse changed to 30 seconds, damage increased at least 100% per rank
    Chi
    Rasttan - change reuse to 4-5 min
    Tiger Reflexes
    Rasttan - change to 1% per rank
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    MONK SECTION:
    Combination
    BChizzle - needs to crit and be easier to use. I suggest Xelgad design this AA to be able to go off with the thought of 1 ca every 2 seconds because that is the reality sometimes.
    Vinka - combination should not be reflectable.
    Ambrin - Allow CA's that miss or are avoided to count towards trigger Combination
    Superior Guard
    BChizzle - needs to have the 'Dispelled when target casts a combat art' portion of this AA removed, too many times I hit this and then lose agro while I wait for it to go off especially these days where monks can actually attain decent mit so we aren't constantly being 2 shotted.
    Body Like Mountain
    BChizzle - the root on this needs to be removed or even better instead the skill should make monks immune to knockbacks while on so being rooted isn't a big deal.
    Ambrin - Make this a maintained buff like Everburning Flame instead of a temp buff (it already costs 200pow/6sec to maintain). Reduce the physical mitigation it grants to about 2/3 of what it is now. T9 master would grant about 500 physical mitigation. Change the maintained power drain to the be the same amount as Everburning Flame is for health. The reuse speed should be instant, but keep the root effect in place.
    Enhance: Body Like Mountain
    Ambrin - Change this so each rank gives the monk a 20% chance to resist knockback effect while the buff is active
    Mongoose Stance
    BChizzle - Instead of a deagro proc this stance should do the opposite and add a damage proc to Dragon Rage.
    Ambrin - Change this to enhance Dragon Rage. Each point gives dragon Rage an additional 20% chance to proc on any incoming damage (100% at 5/5). Each point gives dragon Rage an additional 20% chance to proc on any successful avoidance (100% at 5/5).
    Enhance: Tranquil Vision
    BChizzle - This skill shouldn't transfer hate away from us, it undermines our job which is to create agro and makes things more difficult in an OT situation. What I would like to see if maybe a % chance to proc a stoneskin on the monk when he successfully blocks for a tank with it.
    Ambrin - Change this to proc a taunt or detaunt, the taunt/detaunt should be rather large. Whenever the monk avoids an attack for his avoid target, the monk taunts all targets currently on his hate list. If the avoidance transfer is placed on another fighter, that other fighter also procs a taunt to all targets on the other fights hate list. If the avoidance transfer is placed on a non-fighter than the recipient will proc a detaunt to all targets on their hate list.
    Rasttan - hate transfer to us at 3% per rank that is non fighter only
    Evade Check
    BChizzle - All time absolutely worst skill I have ever seen for a tank. Change this thing completely to a HUGE and I mean HUGE hate over time taunt. Like 10k initial with like 7k ticks. Maybe make the recast 30 seconds with a 10 second duration.
    Ambrin - Make it lower the hate position of the most hated non-fighter by 1. Increase the reuse to 30s. Add an immunity effect the prevent a target encounter from being hit by Evade Check for 20s.
    Rasttan - a 50% chance for group to avoid an AE toss it on a 1 min timer, 15 sec duration
    Lightning Palm
    BChizzle - This skill needs its DPS output changed massively like it should run for 12 seconds and do at least 20k worth of damage during that time, I'd also like it made groupwide so its like a sort of COB/Stampede type thing that would give us some group utility.
    Rasttan - damage tripled, quaddrupled the AA changed to 10% damage per rank
    Thunderous Strike
    Ambrin - Make the final rank turn this buff into a maintained (with a concentration slot) group buff. To match the number of triggers it grants (8/50s with reuse) it would need to be roughly a 10ppm proc. Make it proc off spell attacks and combat arts in addition to melee hits. Make it proc a small ward on the target of a heal as well, the ward amount should roughly match the damage amount.
    Inner Calm
    BChizzle - Monk's lack a groupwide buff, please make this a groupwide buff. Also alter it some, instead of making it just str and wisdom make it give to every stat so it buffs everyone in the group.
    Rasttan - make it a group buff add 2% CB and 2% potency to it or 200 ability mod
    Bob & Weave
    BChizzle - This needs to be a 100% avoidance buff.
    Rasttan - add a 50% chance to proc a stoneskin on a succesful dodge or parry extend duration to 15 sec
    PERFECT SERENTITY
    BChizzle - should be changed from a 4% mit increase to the same damage absorbtion a bruiser gets (10%). With the amount of mit increasers out there and the complete lack of damage prevention this creates a very large inequality that should be fixed. On top of that how is a 4% mit increase even close to comparable to a 10% physical damage absorbtion buff?
    Flow Like Wind
    Vinka - The haste on flow like wind needs to be substituted for 10% flurry instead of 52 points of haste. Monks already are capable of giving themselves 121% haste self-buffed. Flurry accomplishes the same thing as haste (more hits in a shorter period of time) but will leave us capable of receiving useful buffs from troubs/illies.
    Numbing Blows
    Ambrin - Change this so each rank grants 1.2% damage reduction to all sources
    Meditative Mending
    Ambrin - Allow this ability to proc on any source of incoming damage. Change the damage threshold to 30%
    Rasttan - make it a 4% heal per rank
    Will Of Heavens
    BChizzle - Should give a 15 second immunity to whatever control effects cured by Will of Heavens.
    Fall of the Phoenix
    Ambrin - Give the master rank of this ability a 100% success rate. Make this ability prevent AOE if the Feign Death attempt was successful
    Mend
    BChizzle - Increase heal range to 10-15 meters.
    Ambrin - Make this ability have an instant cast and recovery speed. Allow this ability to be usable while under a control effect (like will of the Heavens is)
    Vinka - make mend cure arcane, trauma, and curses on a single target in addition to its large heal. It would mostly be desireable for its curse cure aspect, and might be enough to help mitigate the healer stacking just a wee bit.
    Dragonfire
    Rasttan - reuse changed to 30 seconds. The dragonfire AA should be changed to effect all of our 3 blues in very stance.
    Hidden Openings
    Rasttan - should never miss 100% hit rate, change the range to 20 meters
    Tsunami
    Rasttan -change cast time to instant or .25 seconds
    Dragon Rage
    Rasttan - dbl the threat per proc
  2. ARCHIVED-circusgirl Guest

    Combination- should not be reflectable in addition to it needing to crit
    Eagle Shriek- Needs to be a clicky instead of triggering below 50% hp. No tank in a group or raid will ever be below 50% hp for any reasonable length of time
    Eagle's Patience- Needs to purchaseable without Eagle shriek and should work even if above 50% hp. Again, no brawler will ever be below 50% hp for any reasonable length of time.
    Flow Like Wind- The haste on flow like wind needs to be substituted for 5% flurry instead of 52 points of haste. Monks already are capable of giving themselves 121% haste self-buffed. Flurry accomplishes the same thing as haste (more hits in a shorter period of time) but will leave us capable of receiving useful buffs from troubs/illies.
  3. ARCHIVED-BChizzle Guest

    Vinka@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    We can actually self cap haste in a number of ways. I do think the overhasting needs to be looked at as well, 10% flurry seems a little OP to me though.
    Speaking of our stances, I think the detremental effects need to be removed from our stances. We shouldn't lose 27 defense on our offensive stance and we certainly shouldn't lose 27 slash/pierce/crush on our defensive stance. It seems minor but its just one of those things that doesn't make sense.
  4. ARCHIVED-circusgirl Guest

    Eh, yeah, 10% is probably a bit too much. 5% though would be perfectly reasonable.
  5. ARCHIVED-Mosha D'Khan Guest

    2% is more reasonable.... that would make it like the red adornment
  6. ARCHIVED-BChizzle Guest

    Mosha DKhan wrote:
    If its 2% then why even bother?
  7. ARCHIVED-Mosha D'Khan Guest

    BChizzle wrote:
    oh then i guess why dont we add a "on CA it does 10000% of targets max hp".... the point being the only other class that gives a flurry buff is the dirge, and it is no where near the same as haste itself. the dervs decited 2% for a red adornment was right so a self buff show only give that a well. you guys are whining over haveing something no other fighter class has so unstead of running with and illy go with a coercer for the DPS increase, solves part of your problem for wasting an illy's buffs
  8. ARCHIVED-BChizzle Guest

    Mosha DKhan wrote:
    50 haste is more then 2% flurry if there wasn't a cap.
    EDIT: Put it this way not counting the returns curve, take your standard 4.0 delay weapon, with 50 haste that weapon is now 3.0 delay. For 100 swings with that 4.0 delay it would take 400 seconds. 2% flurry means that in that 100 swings you will get an extra 10 more hits max. In that same 400 seconds a 3.0 delay would amount to 33 extra hits. If you were doing a straight comparison 50 haste is more like 6% flurry.
  9. ARCHIVED-Mosha D'Khan Guest

    maybe in the lower haste where it does not give lower return for it but if you are way up there in haste a 50 haste would give next to nothing in return
  10. ARCHIVED-BChizzle Guest

    Mosha DKhan wrote:
    That is the point Mosha, we get no return for that haste because of the cap and curve she is suggesting we actually get some return for it.
    EDIT: The math is just painting a picture of what haste is worth in flurry and hardly accurate, I don't think we need more flurry personally but Vinka does.
  11. ARCHIVED-Mosha D'Khan Guest

    so a thing that is near worthless for an overpowered 5% flurry wow..... that is fair. the point is you could run with a dirge and coercer and not ahve to waste the illy/troub buffs unstead of whining for an ability to get changed. you guys never had a problem with it until now which is kind of sad
  12. ARCHIVED-BChizzle Guest

    Mosha DKhan wrote:
    This is a monk changes discussion Mosha. We are discussing monk changes and that is Vinka's suggestion. Clearly monks need to be buffed as they are the 2nd worst tank. All suggestions are welcome, as is debate.
  13. ARCHIVED-BChizzle Guest

    In keeping in theme with Xelgad's guardian vision of makinga bunch of small changes lets keep the suggestions in this thread away from the drastic class overhaul suggestions.
  14. ARCHIVED-AustinB Guest

    These are just a bunch of suggestions for the devs to pull from, not an all-or-nothing suggestion list:

    Combination
    * Allow it to crit
    * Give an extra 1 second to the time allowed to trigger it
    * Increase its duration once triggers by 2 seconds
    * Do not allow it to be reflected
    * Allow CA's that miss or are avoided to count towards trigger Combination

    Evade Check
    * Make it lower the hate position of the most hated non-fighter by 1
    * Increase the reuse to 30s
    * Add an immunity effect the prevent a target encounter from being hit by Evade Check for 20s

    Mongoose Stance
    * Change this to enhance Dragon Rage
    * Each point gives dragon Rage an additional 20% chance to proc on any incoming damage (100% at 5/5)
    * Each point gives dragon Rage an additional 20% chance to proc on any successful avoidance (100% at 5/5)

    Enhance: Tranquil Vision
    * Change this to proc a taunt or detaunt, the taunt/detaunt should be rather large
    * Whenever the monk avoids an attack for his avoid target, the monk taunts all targets currently on his hate list
    * If the avoidance transfer is placed on another fighter, that other fighter also procs a taunt to all targets on the other fights hate list
    * If the avoidance transfer is placed on a non-fighter than the recipient will proc a detaunt to all targets on their hate list

    Body Like Mountain
    * Make this a maintained buff like Everburning Flame instead of a temp buff (it already costs 200pow/6sec to maintain)
    * Reduce the physical mitigation it grants to about 2/3 of what it is now, T9 master would grant about 500 physical mitigation
    * Change the maintained power drain to the be the same amount as Everburning Flame is for health
    * The reuse speed should be instant, but keep the root effect in place

    Enhance: Body Like Mountain
    * Change this so each rank gives the monk a 20% chance to resist knockback effect while the buff is active


    Numbing Blows
    * Change this so each rank grants 1.2% damage reduction to all sources

    Thunderous Strike
    * Make the final rank turn this buff into a maintained (with a concentration slot) group buff
    * To match the number of triggers it grants (8/50s with reuse) it would need to be roughly a 10ppm proc
    * Make it proc off spell attacks and combat arts in addition to melee hits
    * Make it proc a small ward on the target of a heal as well, the ward amount should roughly match the damage amount

    Meditative Mending
    * Allow this ability to proc on any source of incoming damage
    * Change the damage threshold to 30%

    Bob and Weave
    * Make this a flat 100% dodge chance

    Crane Twirl
    * Make this ability proc at 50% rate, but do not allow the proc rate to be affected by items

    Eagle Shriek
    * Change it so that it triggers at 60% health
    * Change it so that when it triggers, it lasts for 30 seconds even if the brawler goes above 60% health
    * If the brawler is still under 60% health when this expires it should automatically recast itself

    Eagle's Patience
    * Remove the upper health requirement of this ability
    * Make this ability passively proc when Eagle Shriek activates (1 rank adds 1 stoneskin, 2 ranks ads an additional stoneskin)
    * Limit this ability so Eagle's Patience will only activate once every 30s (if two ranks both stoneskin triggers can go off with no time limit)

    Altruism
    * Change this to a maintained group buff that adds 5% crit bonus and potency to the group

    Monkey Wisdom
    * Have each rank add 1% ability casting, recovery, and reuse speed to Altruism

    Brawler's Tenacity
    * Make both ranks of this buff last until cancelled

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  15. ARCHIVED-BChizzle Guest

    Added people's ideas in. Ill keep adding until we run out of colours for people.
  16. ARCHIVED-AustinB Guest

    Another thing I forgot to mention in my first post is Feign Death. Brawlers should really have a 100% feign death. This could be done by adding two more ranks to Feign Death such that the L90 master Feign Death has a 100% success rate. The T7 master could just be reworked to grant 100% success, or a T7 Grandmaster Feign Death could be added with a 100% success rate.

    I think that FD was left at 97% so that brawlers would still feel a sense of danger when training through zones or trying to escape a death. This sort of fails because brawlers in general (AFAIK) treat Feign Death as if it has a 100% success rate. The odd times that it fails just feel like the RNG laughing at you as a room full of mobs pound in your face. I can't really think of any good reason why Feign Death should not have a 100% success rate.

    While on the topic of Feign Death, I think Fall of the Phoenix should also be looked at. At best this ability is going to save your group some rebuffing after a wipe and a 10g/person repair bill. Given its 15 minute reuse I hardly see any reason why the master rank of this ability can't have a 100% success rate. Also, while this ability occasionally saves a few people in the group when used in a raid, most of the time people (including the FD'd brawler) end up dieing to a mobs AE abilities or raid wipe condition (not so much an issue in SF). I think that this ability should also prevent AOE attacks when used (assuming the Feign Death attempt was succesful). This could also provide monks with a little extra utility as well by giving us a functional group AE prevent, albeit one on a long reuse timer that is unusable in a tank group.

    So to recap:
    Feign Death
    * Give Feign death a 100% success rate (suggestions for achieving this above)

    Fall of the Phoenix
    * Give the master rank of this ability a 100% success rate
    * Make this ability prevent AOE if the Feign Death attempt was successful

    Some other random suggestions:
    Mend
    * Make this ability have an instant cast and recovery speed
    * Allow this ability to be usable while under a control effect (like will of the Heavens is)

    Tsunami
    * Change the casting time to 0.5s
  17. ARCHIVED-Aull Guest

    BChizzle wrote:
    Yes sir. I do think that the issues I would like to see re-evaluated you all have covered.
  18. ARCHIVED-Rasttan Guest

    The above covered are good I'd like to Add a few
    Dragon Fire reuse changed to 30 seconds
    Crane Sweep AA reuse changed to 30 seconds, damage increased at least 100% per rank, the above 2 changes because AE encounters are abundant the last 2 expansions
    The Dragon Fire AA threat should be changed to effect all 3 of our blues in every stance, these last 2 expansions have been AE heavy and craneflock is great but after 20 seconds we are praying on ae encounter to hold every mob.
    Combination should crit and fire non related to any CA usage but as follows 1st hit 100% chance 2nd hit 75% chance, 3rd hit 50% chance. And as stated non reflectable.
    Tranquil Vision hate trasfer to us at 3% per rank that is non fighter only
    No penalties in our stances towards the opposite abilities
    Mongoose stance a damage proc only usable in offensive stance 5ppm 1500-2k dam
    Evade check a 50% chance for group to avoid an AE toss it on a 1 min timer, 15 sec duration
    Eagles Pateince make it buyable with out buying the line, change it to usable at any health%
    Tiger reflexes changed to 1% per rank
    Lightning Palm damage tripled, quaddrupled the AA changed to 10% damage per rank its way underpowered currently
    Change CHI's reuse to 4-5 min maybe that line will get used a bit more
    Inner Calm make it a group buff add 2% CB and 2% potency to it or 200 ability mod something to make it worthwhile
    Numb Blows also add .5% to min block chance per rank along with the .5% mit
    Med Mending change threshhold of trigger to 30% make it a 4% heal per rank it isnt even close to bruiser stoneskin currently or all the other classes damage reduction abilities we need help on this AA.
    Bob and Weave add a 50% chance to proc a stoneskin on a succesful dodge or parry extend duration to 15 sec
    Hiding Oppenings should never miss 100% hit rate, change the range to 20 meters, the discription says we see an opening and take advantage of it HTF do we then miss
    Tsunami change cast time to instant or .25 seconds
    Dragon Rage dbl the threat per proc our current TPS is the pits compared to other classes
  19. ARCHIVED-Silzin Guest

    First I love most of the changes.
    2nd i think that a compromise for the dehate abilities (Evade Check, Mongoose Stance, Enhance: Tranquil Vision) would be tying them to the stances. where if Offensive they drop us in hate like they do know, if in defensive they give us hate. But i also like Ambrin's ideas for them ether would be nice.

    I think if your Stances where changed to be more of a +DPS and less hate for O stance and more hate and Mit for the D stance. This change would also rely on removing our uncontested avoidance and a few other things to other buffs as it has bin said by some of yall in other places. Changing the stances would allow for more abilities and diversity to be tied to the stances so that we are not OP in any given stance, just able to change between then when we need to. Also the mid stance may be useful for something again.
  20. ARCHIVED-Shredderr Guest

    Well frustrated at not being considered a real tank I rolled a pally and noticed something strange . at lvl 20 he has 24% uncontested avoidance in offensive stance . I have 7 % on my monk and he is well geared despite not raiding . Struck me as odd that this very viable mt is clearly a better ot also . can give mitigation , cangive their avoidance chance and can heal quite well all this in offensive stance as well as out dps monks . we are a sorry choice for either role atm it seems .