Monk changes – or at least things that are Useless

Discussion in 'Fighters' started by Silzin, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. Estred Well-Known Member

    Give Beta Values if you can, those are more relevant as Live Armor will be obsolete in less than 7 days.

    On Beta since I balance Avoid vs Mit I run 16.4K Avoid or 43.7% Uncontested with with 100.6% Block that is with only Bash running (A Block Buff that never falls off in combat due to recast). So please give some Brawler values, Block should be higher than Mitigation.

    If you wish to compare that is.
  2. Silzin Active Member

    on Beta with the "Heroic Test gear" so %s may be a bit lower then with the Raid test stuff, and my Live Weapons since the %Block is the same between them and 2 of the raid ones combined. with a mixture of Mit and Block Gear i have 8244 Mit, 23,455 Avoid, 109 block, 58% Uncontested Block, 23.6% Riposte, 6% dodge, 2% Parry.

    But with this gear i also only have about 450 dps, 250 haste, 180 MA, 5% Acc, 66% ST. So i am sure that i would have a very hard time holding any mobs with this gear setup... but i have Avoidance and and about the same Mit as live... but much lower dps stats.

    Edit: also there are Guards that have posted other places that they have 70% uncontested Block, 15k + Mit Static, 100% Flurry, and all of the dps stats they will need... on Beta... so my avoidance #s do not impress me...
  3. Estred Well-Known Member

    I think I know who your talking about Silzin. I can't confirm it as I don't have such stats myself. That Flurry though is because of Focused Offensive. That Guard is probably converting about 90% Melee AE into Flurry which means his AE-Aggro is trash. Your overcap on Haste by 30 and by 80 MA. Your Uncontested Block is still 10% Higher than my own. Can't say much else as I don't have those number and fabricating numbers is a big mistake.

    Also isn't this thread a little old? Shouldn't this be more on the Beta discussion boards, I am pretty darn sure there are threads already discussing the mitigation vs avoidance thing for Plate and Leather Tanks.
  4. Malleria Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't say 180MA is overcap. If they swapped MA/DPS curves as they claim, the sweet spot for MA before the returns massively diminish is 200. And for tanks dependent on auto attack for hate that chance at an extra attack is gold.
  5. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    On beta, the cap on MA is 200, not 100. You need about 120 haste/dps.

    If your stats are that low, you're not gearing properly. If you desire more blue stats, take more cast speed gear and reforge it. Make sure you're using the most efficient adornments (cast speed is good, don't use the reuse adorns for example.. since reuse isn't expensive anymore.. etc)

    My paladin has so many blue stats it's ridiculous. In raids I'm at 100% AE auto, a fair amount of flurry, max strikethrough, hate gain, dps mod, multi attack, haste AND 650 crit chance (which I have to adorn for). With a full set of the right gear and proper adornments (purple included) your stats will be significant higher than they are on live, assuming you're focusing on blue stat gear. If not, you'll gain in HP and defensive stats.

    No matter what you take, your HP is going to more than quadruple. If that's not a gain in your mind, then I don't know what to tell you. Blue stats are secondary. You can hold aggro without 100% strikethrough.
  6. Silzin Active Member

    I can get all of the DPS stats i want, but i lose so much of Mit and Block to get there, its not worth the hit to survive-ability ... i would not survive like a plate tank would doing the same.
  7. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    You're not losing survivability. 4 times as much HP > 10% mit and avoid. No matter what, you're GAINING survivability. The amount of survivability is what changes depending on how much DPS you want. There's a balance to find between aggro and survivability, and every tank has to find that balance.
  8. Malleria Well-Known Member

    4 times as much HP is a gain in survivability if mob damage output remained the same. 4 times as much mob damage output negates the HP increase. All you're left with is the mit and avoidance loss.
  9. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    That's like saying mobs having more health means DPS didn't go up. Relative to the mobs, you're not SUPPOSED to become MORE POWERFUL. You're supposed to gain as they gain. You're supposed to be able to keep up, and all tanks will be able to.

    The sky isn't falling.
  10. Malleria Well-Known Member

    All I'm saying is if incoming damage increases at the same rate as your hp, they cancel each other out. A 10k hit on a 100k hp pool is the same as a 40k hit on a 400k hp pool. There was no increase in survivability there, just bigger numbers. So pointing frantically at our larger hp pool is meaningless.
  11. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    And a mob's HP doubling cancels out DPS doubling. That doesn't mean DPS didn't go up. Are you missing the parallel here or what? If players gained MORE strength than the monsters every expansion, don't you think there would be an issue eventually?

    And by that logic, HP means nothing.. yet, HP is a huge contributor of survivability. In fact, on live, HP is one of the most powerful means of gaining survivability. You can't just overlook that because you feel like it.

    If you want mitigation and avoid so much, get it. There's nothing stopping you. You will die. A balance between the two is necessary to succeed. Giving up some offensive stats may be necessary for that.

    You are a tank, aren't you?
  12. Malleria Well-Known Member

    No, player DPS isn't an accurate parallel to survivability. Doubling mob hp while doubling player dps would cancel out if you're trying to determine whether kill times are changing, not if you're trying to measure DPS output. 'Survivability' in this case is more of a parallel to kill time analysis, it's a more complex equation than just 'did hp go up?'.

    I'm not even arguing right now that overall survivability in the expac will be more or less than overall survivability on live currently. Simply that your statement that an increase to hp necessarily equals more survivability is oversimplifying things. If my live hp goes up by 100, but mobs start hitting for 5 million, did my survivability go up? At the most basic level sure, I'm more able to survive with x+100 than with just x, but overall it's not an increase to survivability because the extra 100 isn't enough to counter the increase in mob damage.
  13. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    And it's not as simple as kill times either. DPS checks on adds and such have to come into consideration. Like I said, this is a multifaceted issue and you're ignoring all of it except the obvious part.

    If your idea of gaining survivability is as you say, then tanks have NEVER gained survivability.
  14. Malleria Well-Known Member

    A dps check IS a kill time check in virtually every situation. It's possible for them to implement a dps check without it being related to mob hp, but one certainly hasn't been used lately. Seems like we're going in circles though, since your response is now basically a mirror of my entire point, that survivability isn't as simple as seeing a boost in one aspect (player hp) but that it's a complicated equation with multiple factors.
  15. Silzin Active Member

    the point that I have been trying to make, and i think other brawlers have been trying to make here also is: It is much harder for either Brawler to reach the same Relative Survive-ability Required to Tank at several different points along the Scale of named tanking in the game after ToV goes live. both Brawlers will have to sacrifice a lot more in order to get to where an equally skilled plate tank will be at for the "Minimum Survive-ability Needed" to tank Set Named.

    This is all about relative per-portions, and all tanks are getting nerfed relatively for DPS vs Survive-ability. But it is hurting the Brawlers the most, expressly since both Brawlers had several direct nerfs in conjunction with the general nerfing of tanks. this all then brings me back to the original points of this thread... Monk changes of useless and pointless abilities... since after ToV goes live the Dev's Should have time to look into these for all classes.
  16. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    DPS checks are not necessarily related to kill time, especially on adds. Adds can pile up and kill you. It's not a matter of expediting the raid. It's a matter of being able to kill the mob. Just like survivability isn't a matter of making it easier on healers, it's a matter of being able to survive throughout a fight.

    Mobs like Gen`Ra have proven that brawlers and healers CURRENTLY have the tools to deal with outrageous hits. Properly rotating saves results in brawlers being extremely powerful. I haven't played with either of you, but if you disagree with this, you're probably doing it wrong.

    I don't think this change affects brawlers the most at all. On live, plate tanks have almost as much avoid as brawlers. On beta, I am losing a huge chunk of avoid, and even mit. When this goes live, I will be significantly behind brawlers without gearing to compensate for the losses.

    A fully defensive tank will be basically indestructible this expansion. To do so, you're forfeiting DPS, aggro, and some utility (cast and reuse, potentially). This isn't specific to either plate OR leather tanks.

    Yes, brawlers have a lot of underutilized or underpowered abilities. These abilities are avenues for balance going forward. Remember that AA that adds positions to the taunts you never used before? That's one example. These types of changes will continue to be made carefully, since adding more buttons isn't exactly ideal, and it's easy to throw off class balance.
  17. Estred Well-Known Member

    I actually can back up what Maergoth is saying about Avoidance. Plate Tanks do have almost as much avoidance and it's partially I feel because Brawlers are almost entirely reliant on Gear for their Block Boosts. I don't want to see the return of Drunder-Block Weapons. On Beta I took a large hit, I have to choose speccing Avoidance or Mitigation now, which I rather like.

    Also there are changes to classes planned after ToV. They probably are holding off on those to see how things settle with new Itemization before changing classes.
  18. Malleria Well-Known Member

    While avoidance levels aren't changing that much for brawlers, we're losing a large chunk of uncontested block, same as plates. The natural mit advantage plate tanks have over brawler is, imo, quite a bit more valuable than the avoidance advantage brawlers have over plate. It's telling when brawlers get better results taking mitigation pieces over block pieces in beta.
  19. Rasttan Member

    Block chance: Monks and Brawlers in general are getting the short end of the stick on block% on gear we have a
    Mitt disadvantage which is expected but we should have a block advantage on our weapons over
    Shields 1 weapon with 9.9% block doesn't add up when there's shields with 20-30%, we should
    easily have 20% minimum on a single weapon ideally around 25%, there are monk, bruiser,
    beastlord only weapons this would be easy to implement wo it getting abused by non leather.

    Reckless: make it the same for all tanks having a penalty based on class for a generic stance is bad
    especially since you gave another tank classes special skills to even tank dps, it simply needs
    to be identical for all classes now

    Monk AA or Abilities:
    Serene Energy - really? a 12-16k ward please adjust the base to at least 80k
    Outward calm - ditto adjust the base to 100k
    Winds of retribution - adjust the base proc to 40k
    Meditative Mending - You limited the proc rate on something that never procs anyway why? just
    put it back to the way it was.
    Deflecting Blow - Since we lost or block chance edge change this to 2.5% block per point
    Dragon rage - change to 12-15k threat per proc, when we turtle up we have some agro issues

    And Finally Dragon AA:
    Last stand - 2% health to trigger? I hope that's a typo should be 3-4% per point since its on a 90
    second timer, way under powered as it sits.
    Fierce Roar - make it 15 seconds on the counters, its a small bump in health shouldn't be as hard
    as it is to keep the counters up.
    Fierce Stance - strikethrough is for when your in front of a mob, since this appears to be the dps
    line it should increase flurry instead.
    Aggressor's Power - should be upped to 15 second duration, once again a dps choice line
    Strength of Mind - 3% per level at least, you have adorns giving other classes permanent
    immunity not sure who or why someone would think 10% is adequate.
  20. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    Good thing you can mix both once you start getting to the mitigation curve plate tanks are at and still destroy us with avoidance.

    As for those AAs, some minor tweaks would be nice, but not necessary. DPS line doesn't mean "just for when you're not tanking".

    Taunt every time it's up to keep the triggers rolling. Easy. The 2% health is to make death prevents more powerful (Brawlers have more than anyone else! And you're complaining about this.)

    Yes, your ward became less powerful. And mend became more powerful. Fair trade that a lot of classes had to make.

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