Monk changes – or at least things that are Useless

Discussion in 'Fighters' started by Silzin, Apr 24, 2013.

  1. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    It's not worth suggesting specifics, because it doesn't matter how you go about doing it. I'm not even for the idea of adding hate to temps, because you should be using temps even when not tanking to help the main tank. Intercepting spikes with death prevents up if possible, transferring avoid, etc. The mob doesn't even need to be targeting you to do most of your job. Tanking is taking damage so someone else doesn't have to. The mob doesn't even need to be on your for that. Nor do you need aggro for that.

    Easiest way would be to have a buff that "If frontal, proc aggro. If behind or flanking, proc damage" added to your stances, or wherever.

    It doesn't matter.

    There are a million ways to accomplish said goal. Whether devs want you to be able to hold a mob all fight or not determines whether you get the hate boost or not. It really depends on the direction they take content.

    I'm not against brawler main tanks, I'm just against there being no detriment to it. They're the only class in game that can do everything well, if not better than everyone else. Utility, aggro, defense, dps.. they don't even have to compete for half their gear.

    Unless there are multiple brawlers in raid, which happens more than most people ITT would like to think.

    Bchizzle, you have yet to say anything that shows you know anything about anything being discussed by anyone in this thread. You've read maybe a third of it, and you're probably just upset you're not in Equilibrium anymore. I understand. Maybe if you were a little better, you'd still be here and I'd be a little more inclined to trust you're not just talking out of your ***.
  2. Malleria Well-Known Member

    Now we're just going in circles, cause I suggested basically that^ pages ago. I'm not completely against the dps drop while tanking as long as hate isn't affected. That way brawlers still can MT, but they suffer the dps loss so it's not as attractive.

    Tank and priest gear needs to be crated, plain and simple. I don't understand why they've left it as long as they have.
  3. Estred Well-Known Member

    You are twisting my words to fit your desires. My question is how does one change brawlers without making then unable to tank; not that any suggestion here would make then unable to perform that roll. I don't believe I said that the increased hate should be only tied to temps. Snaps are just as effective as would an AA to passively add hate if you are the target of aggression. If your raid can't pick up after 30-90 seconds of the Brawler tanking fulltime well then a wipe is deserved. Without temps ideally a Brawler could pick up the boss, but surviving would be on the Healers not the Tank.

    Guards I can tell you are barely getting by on their stoneskins. An fights that a DI has to happen every 24-30 seconds a Guardian just can't tank it, the cooldowns aren't there. Guardian temps also don't work very well against the stacking mitigation debuff now bosses have as their protections have short durations and are "on-hit" based. Once Dragoon's Reflexes is down a Guardian is hosed for protections that last for more than 1-2 seconds, maybe 6 in current fights if you are lucky. Basically 1 round of Auto-Attacks and goodbye stoneskins. Only one that can last 2 round is Last Man Standing which is supposed to be the Guardian Class-Endline. Currently only a Brawler can full-time that type of fight unless a Guard wants to play "hand off the named" with another tank the whole time.

    Every brawler here I see is trying to take the words of any non-brawler and say we are trying to ruin your class. Thing is right now Guardians have no roll. They are the 2nd-rate MT class to Brawlers (which technically means 3rd rate as there are two Brawling classes). So pick, would you rather buff Guardians to be viable MT choices over a Brawler tank or would you rather examine how to not just inflate stats even more and instead trade off stats to define a roll?

    Ultimately we are just going in a giant circle here. There are two distinct sides in this argument. Those for a change and those against it. No decision I believe will be reached by this crowd of players and as such it's ultimately a Dev's choice, though were I a dev I wouldn't reply here. Better to just make the change than have words twisted around to suit personal agenda's.

    Yep.
  4. Duele Active Member

    Better yet

    - Remove Blanka from these forums because he has proven to never provide anything good for Fighter balance, ultimately decreasing the gameplay of this game.

    Seriously, its funny you keep reverting back to the DPS on Maer's stream when we all know that is a load since you used one kill for your example. You than try and talk down the numbers of a 100k variance, not taking into account that 100k when other people are doing 300k is a huge % amount.

    Than you go back to the asking for other Fighters to continually ask for increases to their class....which in effect is the same thing as a nerf. If everybody gets raised but your class, that is exactly the same thing as nerfing your class. As a developer I would much rather correct the issue of 1 or 2 classes instead of raising 4. Not to mention other Fighters don't feel they need increases, they don't want to be like Brawlers tanking everything with ease. They just want Fighters to be balanced for their intended role, something Brawlers are obviously not.

    You really wouldn't know balance since for some reason you haven't figured out the class you play has been OP'd for the last few expansions.
  5. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    @Malleria,
    I've been saying the same thing for 8 pages. It's been circles the entire time. You might want to note that the ONLY direct suggestion I made was a nerf to brawler dps while tanking, and a buff to brawler dps while not tanking. Everything else was hypotheticals countering people's silly claims.

    I don't think aggro would be an issue, unless it's intended to be. Either way, there are 1000 ways to shift it one way or the other.

    @Blanka
    I've raided with a lot of bawwlers in the past, but you are by far one of the least attentive. I can't imagine that much merit should be given to your opinion on class balance.

    You've been contributing, apparently negatively, to brawler focus for years now. Focusing only on the weaknesses of brawlers, and stuck yourself in a spot where your class is going to get nerfed. You drove into it fundamental flaws that are going to upset people no matter how they are fixed.

    I've been contributing to my class for less than a year now, and since then, paladins are pretty close to perfect. There are some minor issues, and no one would complain about cure trauma on our single target cure, but you've near single handedly broken monks, and brawlers in general. The loudest voice in the room has to take some responsibility.
  6. Quabi Active Member

    All the tank classes pretty much do everything well. It's just the plate tanks each have one weakness and/or they have to make sacrifices in the Prestige tree. Give the Brawlers each one weakness and/or make them choose a weakness in the prestige tree, and voila, it's balanced.

    EDIT: And technically, Brawlers already take larger spikes than plate tanks. It's just negated by all their anti-spike skills/AAs (and likely isn't big enough even without those), which is why I suggest making that their weakness. It has been a part of the class since the beginning.
  7. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    I'd say all tanks can do everything *SOMEWHAT*. Yet, brawlers are better at all of those things than anyone else.

    Siren's Grotto especially.

    A stacking debuff that applies less frequently with more avoidance that reduces your mitigation. Mitigation being the only thing plate tanks have a slight advantage in. Mobs like Gen`Ra that will straight up one-shot any tank if it lands a hit. A doppleganger that spawns periodically, memwipes, and hits hard as hell. The whole zone screams brawler.

    And with Siren's Grotto being the template for raid zones going forward, there's room for valid concern. Saying "they just need a weakness" is a little vague to mean anything.
  8. Quabi Active Member

    I mean forget about emergency tanks. And really, forget about assigning roles based on classes altogether. It's the strengths and weaknesses of each class that are important. I can imagine content where it's optimal to have a Shadowknight MT or a Guardian OT based on the strengths and weaknesses of those classes.

    EDIT: A Paladin makes a great MT, OT, or 'ET' as long as they don't run out of snaps. If a lot of snaps are required, they're unable to do any of those roles.
    Malleria likes this.
  9. Bchizzle Active Member

    I don't know why you want to get personal but I was inattentive because quite frankly I was bored raiding with you and your guild. After the 40 or 50th time someone failed to hit their clicky wiping us in Grotto I just stopped giving a ****. In fact I expected to raid way less and it turned out I was raiding way more than I wanted to. I talked to Buffrat and they said they needed a 4th tank who wouldn't really have to play much and since that fit what I was looking for I apped. But I ended up playing way more than expected. Which is not to say I didn't enjoy my time there its just I was told one thing and given something else in return. I thought there were some pretty cool guys/gals there including you and I did like the people. Honestly while I was there I did what was asked of me I parsed well and kept my mouth shut, I simply wasn't looking to raid so much. I thought I would be basically used on pirates and whatever else needed 4 tanks.

    That said since you want to get personal I have raided with plenty crusaders in the past and you aren't really all you think you are, its funny when people joke that you aren't Stonestrong or Jeal level but I never really got to see that for myself since you were basically throw away tank on everything and never actually in the month I was there did I see you contribute anything at all that someone playing paly 1 day couldn't do. You talk about intercepts and saving tanks all the extra things a tank does but i swear to god neither you nor your sk ever did any of that meanwhile I was always popping things on Sard even if it killed me wondering wtf you guys were doing. You basically sat back with Amends and auto attacked the whole time I was there. I am sure maybe you are capable of some sort of greatness but I never saw any of it.

    As far as my advice goes Ive been providing feedback as far back as DoF when monks got turned to paper. I have been the biggest advocate of getting rid of this whole avoidance tanking BS because it doesn't work when all game devs want to do is create one shot mechanics as a challenge because they are too confined by this games horrible mechanics to create anything else as a difficulty scale for encounters. It doesn't work and tanking has been way more balanced since they evened out mit and avoidance better. I hate monks reliance on temps and am very vocal about it and personally I think monk dps is fine where it is. If I had my choice monk(brawler) itemization would be fixed to be in line with plates items, temps would be nerfed (less important) but they would increase brawler innate survivability so they aren't getting one shot with temps down. How again are any of those bad ideas? You know what a bad idea is, creating this emergency tank crap and saying hey that's your job now brawlers.
  10. Bchizzle Active Member

    The debuff lands on hits or avoid there is no advantage to having a brawler for debuff stacks, in fact as the debuff stacks its more likely a brawler will be one shot vs a plate tank.
  11. Bchizzle Active Member

    First off its not 100k variance its a 40-50k variance, and if you want to get specific the other tanks are running around doing things losing dps hits so if they were on the mob even longer the variance would be even smaller. You should actually go do some research before you open your mouth again. So again how is asking for brawler DPS to be nerfed in half when other tanks do the same dps any part of balance? Its not you guys are just saying the worst things possible because you want to ruin a game for people who enjoy it, you did it before ask any zerk about that, oh wait none are left from when you destroyed their class.
  12. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    @Quabi,
    Paladins make good MTs and OTs. Emergency tanking of any kind requires more snaps and hard saves than we have access to. We just have to choose between ALL of our damage reductions, and ALL of our spike damage. Naturally, our damage suffers.

    @Blanka,
    Three posts in a row, and nothing but mad in all of them. I'm sorry you didn't make the cut. Thankfully, Buffrat's monk alt can handle the things you were not capable of. If ever you were a good brawler, those times are long gone.

    The issue is this: Hypothetically speaking, a person unable to utilize the tools given to their class cannot appreciate the value of them. Hypothetically speaking, if one were to fail repeatedly at something like holding aggro on some snakes, they may be confused into thinking brawlers do not have enough aggro. Or, because the snakes didn't die instantly, that brawlers need more damage. Hypothetically speaking, if your guild pulls a paladin in who showed up late and it dies after 5+ wipes caused by said individual, that individual probably never learns. Hypothetically speaking, that person should probably not come onto the forums and talk about what brawlers do or don't need, because they don't know what brawlers do or don't have.

    The debuff does stack less on a brawler, and when brawlers don't get hit, their mitigation values are meaningless. Sardo frequently chills at 10-15 stacks (after twice as much time as it takes me to accumulate them) if they don't just fall off before then.

    Coming into the thread ranting and raving, attacking people for disagreeing with you and flat out refusing to read a damn thing.. You should come prepared for scrutiny. Don't get upset when people call you out.

    As for berserkers, your comments about them being a "destroyed class" are staggeringly inaccurate. Zerkers are a couple tweaks away from being fun enough to play that the utility they bring (which is already better than combat mastery by far) should have people playing them in the offtank role more often.
  13. Typos Member

    I am shaking my head..

    You guys are "balancing" the ENTIRE fighter archetype of the game based on 1 raid zone. Without any thought to how it effects the rest of the game. heroic group lf tank/heals/bard/chanter/brawler pst.

    Your idea's have merit. But you are not looking ahead to see potential damage.

    Lets say you guys get all your wishes and you nerf the living bejesus out of brawlers so the fights feel better in this one raid zone. Brawlers are now unkillable dps/bards. You now need a brawler to raid. It's now needed .. like a dirge. Because without the avoidance transfer your tanks are dying. DPS just lost a raid slot. Because? You need a brawler, but hey now you need an actual tank to tank things.. so now you have to recruit an "actual" tank. But you can't ditch the brawler.. you need his buffs.

    SORRY DPS YOUR SITTING.

    I truly, truly, truly, truly wish you guys would think about what you plan.

    What will happen as a result of my change? Ask yourselves this. Please... I can tell you aren't.

    Now... I'm done. nerf away, my pally is leveled. I refuse to play some dps/bard/avoidance bot thing.
    Silzin likes this.
  14. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    Siren's Grotto is going to be the plan for raid zones going forward. That's why I'm basing everything off of it. We're talking about balancing it around raid zones.

    You're conjuring up some fantasy in which a raid with 2 brawlers suddenly needs to recruit a tank to replace one of them. The thing is, this already happened when SKs fell off their high horse. And it would have happened to the other tanks too, if there ever was a reason for having more than one of them.

    Furthermore, brawlers are invincible in heroic zones. Any spike damage weakness they may have is null and void when heroic mobs aren't hitting for anything (which they aren't). Even if it meant a DPS nerf for brawlers, their defensive excellence more than outweighs a slightly longer run time in the zone.

    Refuse to do whatever, but for every brawler who would switch classes over something like this, there will be a guardian and paladin pulled down from the shelf and dusted off to fill the roles that were accidentally taken away from THEM by brawlers.
  15. Malleria Well-Known Member

    They will be, cause the mob won't be targeting them!

    Don't yell at me, I'm kidding <3
  16. Bchizzle Active Member

    Make what cut? Your guild didn't make the cut with me, that is why I didn't care to show up. Sorry to say it but if I was motivated more I probably would have showed up more, its not all your fault I mean this game is a joke now and SG is a horrible raid zone. As far as saying who is a good or bad tank I did everything you did and more while I was there so Im pretty sure it puts you in a much worse place right? But yeah its that monks need nerfing that I outparsed and out tanked you. Really all one has to do to see you are full of it is just look at your streams of you doing basically nothing and parsing like junk, you are being carried by your guild 3rd 4th tank yet you come here and act like you are something special. Seriously what I saw every raid was whats on your streams, nothing special. Maybe you have it in you to be a good player but Im sure those days are long gone. Must hurt when they have to log Buffrats alt to do things that any capable paly can do.
  17. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    Lol. That has never happened. Sorry to burst your bubble.
  18. Ebofu Active Member

    [IMG]

    Enough said.
  19. Stike Member

    The rooster fighting between Maer and Blanka aside(which was enjoyable reading),

    Would have no issues dropping monk DPS a bit while tanking, since the plate tanks seem to want that the most but feel that they dont want their classes buffed just brawlers dps nerfed.

    Only thing I want in return is to mitigate some of the damage taken to put it more in line with what the plate tanks take when hit. But then of course, that would be returned with you already have blockers and higher avoidance so that would be calls for another nerf if brawlers got that..

    OK fine, then give the plate tanks those things too, but in return give me some wards and heals with my damage and let me ward, heal group. But you already have the best death save and do get a self heal.

    Fine give the plates that, but in return.... wait, just make all 6 classes exactly the same then no reason for anyone to complain....

    yes that was sarcasm!

    seriously though all of the complaints are mainly over a zone(CS) that 90% of the raiding population dont even touch because the skill level isnt there for a raid as a whole even to kill the first named in the zone makes me laugh. Yeah I know Maer said all future zones will be like this, which if thats the case that will really dwindle the population considering all but the top guilds can even kill in the zone that is already over 3-4 months old which would mean another year of the same content that lower end guilds been killing for last year and half. Which I am sure responses from hardcores will be "dont suck as much", "go to better guild", "you should quit game", etc, etc. But the fact is, in last month even, we lost 3 people who quit game because bored of doing same content, but we barely get full raid once a week at best so hard to give them something new as it takes time/gear to progress and with the losses that happens on a consistent basis, we spend majority of time gearing up/training the new folks again so we can attempt progression very rarely in the windows where we do actually have a full raid.

    If there is a change to class balance it really doesnt make any difference to me, I have one of each archtype, so can roll with whatever is most effective just like I did when brawlers were the suck. But seems each time they swing the nerfbat, the poplation of the server gets smaller and smaller which is already a huge concern already for guilds trying to even get numbers to raid..

    Would rather have the Devs focus on more of the Duo zones and challenging content like that, which has been the most fun I personally have had in a long time in this game.
  20. Estred Well-Known Member

    As a plate tank to me that reads; "I want to take hits like a plate tank if I am going to do damage like one."

    To which my response is: "Then roll a plate tank and stop trying to become our class."

    From my viewpoint Brawlers have taken the roll that was intended for Warriors. Of all the guilds I have looked at I would almost be able to say 80% of them run Crusaders and Brawlers with no Warrior. Why is that?

    They have Crusaders specifically Paladins for doing that. Again if you want that, roll a Paladin.

    By this point I hope it's clear that I am just adding to your sarcastic point in that asking for things another class has is just a case of "class envy" and if that is all we did then we would have six "Tank" classes with different names that mean nothing.

    They need to define what every class does rather than make them all copies of each other. This ideally means any tank can do any roll, but the rolls they are not built to do are the ones they perform poorly in. Capable of doing it yes, but poorly.