- Reversal is nigh worthless. It procs 7 times every 30 seconds assuming we make every avoidance type. The damage is also too low. Gladiator's Strike accounts for less than 1-2% of my parse, I am pretty sure that a Brawlers 2nd-weapon even in Defense accounts for more than that. - We do get offense stats and defense stats from a shield, however we do not get weapon-damage from our shields, something brawlers and crusaders get. This is the first time that DR has been mentioned in this thread, I was unaware that Monks had none. I think they should, it would make sense a monk's will would allow him to ignore pain (literally). I am fully aware of what Guardians can do, we have a healthy amount of DR and Stoneskins but lack very much in DPS except for very ideal conditions. Shield-Tanks were in the same boat as Brawlers in DoV when Strikethrough totally boned them, I still remember getting 1 shot in the X2 and X4 zones because of a Multi-Attack Strikethrough.
Provoking Stance gives 25% for 24 sec's every 1.5m. (with max reuse) Stone Cold is 15% for 20 sec's every 45 sec (with max reuse) and Unrivaled Focus is 30% for 3 sec's every 10 sec's. Provoking stance and Unrivaled Focus are normally speced, but Stone Cold is normally not taken for CM. So ya monks dont have any real damage reduction abilities that are reliable.
Unrivalled is only physical reduction, on top of that, the mobs in these new zones auto attack very slow but hit hella hard, like massive hit every 9 seconds type thing which pretty much makes Unrivalled useless since it is down by the time the next auto comes.
You also get a faster swing rate one handed while dual wielding slows swings down. When you add them together the difference between going 1 handed and DW for a guard is similar as offensive stance vs defensive on a brawler, brawler lose ALOT switching to defensive.
I have never noticed a slow-down when I Dual-Wield. If they are similar that is fine, I do think we are starting to get off topic though. Wasn't this thread about Monk Changes? We are starting to talk class balance rather than class changes.
When you can't understand a simple mechanic as to the increase in weapon delays that happen when you dual wield then really you shouldn't be chiming in on monk issues about anything related to dual wielding. Your sig says your toon was created almost 4 years ago that is more than enough time to understand the simple basic day 1 mechanics of this game.
Just because I never noticed it, does not mean it did not exist. I have since checked my own and indeed, there is a slowdown so congrats you taught me something new. Anyway, I can accept that indeed the difference between a shield and a brawlers 2nd weapon in defense are extremely minimal. Now remind me, what exactly was the point in our 4+ long back and forth and how it related to monks. Perhaps it simply was you wanted to correct me? Addressing what Silzin is putting forth with DR, would you say the issue is Stone Cold simply is undesirable or is it not needed? If we are purely comparing tanks (and I am comparing to Guard as they seem to have some good DR and I play one). Guardians have Dr from the following sources. - 2% DR running all the time form Battle Cry if they have the AA. - 10% from Hunker Down for 45 Seconds every 1 Minute 10 Seconds. - 4.5% from Champions interception or 4-6% from Grit. *Net 6-6.5% of constant DR and 16% of boosted DR. Beyond that all DR on a Guardian is procced and not consistent, so in a way Monks have more with their temps in terms of "useful" DR. This is where I am apparently missing exactly what Monks are missing so horridly on. They need the itemization fixes for block-chance and they probably need a skill or two being un-nerfed. I think they are better than people here seem to think.
Also is the edit-function broken on for anyone else on this thread? I wanted to add that if you do flat numerical comparisons Monks have "spike" DR and Guardians have "passive" DR. In a sense monks have more DR than Guardians do, at least DR they can rely on to save their skin.
There is no such thing as useful spike DR when mobs are hitting you for twice your HP all the time. Again you have to add all things up and your example doesn't account for the fact you probably sit at 17k+ mit with those constant damage reductions while tanking these mobs and a monk is at 12k with none. Stonecold shouldn't even be brought into this argument because a monk with stonecold might as well just be replaced with a better tank at that point since the only reason to bring a monk is CM.
To try and bring this back on topic. - Stone Cold is not a desirable end line most of the time since 15% DR for the group will not save people from things that they would not survive anyway. It can be used in conjunction with Provoking Stance to give us 40%, but that’s only every about 3 min. - Tag Team – the other Heroic End line – this is a 8 sec avoid. Monks don’t need a nether avoid ability, but this is shared with Bruisers (I just remembered that) and they don’t already have 2 avoid abilities. But what I am sure about is most Bruisers would not be taking this for survivability over CM. - Brawler Tree Int line - Eagle Shriek (endline) and Eagle’s Patience (AA that adds to Shriek) – this is a when below 50% ability and as such it have become useless. Before merks came out Soloing and leveling this AA was useful, but with the addition of merks there is no need for this aa. I have made several subjections and so have others to change this. Leving it just as it is and giving it a 5 to 10 sec duration on this effects that it has would work, I think. - Prestige – - Right side – the right side needs to be completely rethought after Waveform. The rite side needs to offer more DPS this Double Conversion. Specific areas that need to be addressed would be: Ocean’s Onslaught (added damage from behind), Stifling Assault (Debuff for attach speed), and Most importantly the end line Fluid Combination. - Left Side - Winds of Salvation – with all of the points in this the only thing the Monk gets from this is the Immunity to effects for 5 sec’s. Ok I am a selfish Tank, I want MY defensive Abilities to be o… Defensive for ME… PLEASE. I think the simplest and best idea for fixing this line would be let everything apply to the monk and the target. The end line Winds of Retribution is not bad, Max of 10% Max Health and 3% repost with Max Increments. It would be nice if the Max Health was changed to DR though. Out of all of the things I see with the monk these points are the ones I would like to address the most. Other people may have others or have other subjections for this, please let’s talk about it.
Just give it up blankaa. Trying to get boost by claiming a class is worthless is pretty lol. Reversal as you call super ability when we block.... It can only trigger 1 every 30secs. Its down right worthless. As for zerks are the highest demanded tank atm? aye thats why we have like 1 guild on splitpawn that are recruiting one atm. Zerks are in good shape atm. I wont lie as you are in this thread. And the utility boost was probly not even needed. But the fact is both crusaders and zerks need the defensiv prestige side to be tankish. Even if you spec CM you still got amazing defensiv tools. Monks are not bad off. And they are not the worst tank class atm as you claim. Monks might not be the best tank class either anymore but they are still way better than some tank classes. You can DW or use 2handers when you are in defensiv stance. Tbh i would trade for that if i could DW and block at the same time over having to use a shield. I bet you every none brawler would. Really just stop it and talk about the real issues the monk class have witch arnt that many tbh.
/yawn I have already provided enough facts to back up my statements. Sorry they weren't blatently obvious enough for you.
Fluid combination doing more DPS would be good enough. If DR was added to Winds and nothing else changed I could live with that, maybe 10% at max increments but is should be all damage types not just physical. My one problem though with is it procs of ripostes and they made it so mobs in the new zone swing slow as hell we will never get enough procs.
I can agree with you here. Fluid Combination getting a bust of 3 to 5 times what it does now may do it. May need more than just that since i dont remember it doing that much even when Reckless. As for Winds of Salvation, it they only changed the Max Health to 10% DR verses ALL damage then the left side would be enuff added survivability to take over the added agro of Double Conversion or all Right side. But i would still like to see some of the Winds of Salvation stuff apply to the Monk (Again i may just be Selfish). I would like also to see an option for more Defense in the Int line of the Brawler tree.
If int line worked properly it would be amazing. Like if eagles procced and stayed up for a defined amount of time like say 5 seconds that way we could make use of the stoneskin plus the mit and cb buffs it would be a seriously effective tanking choice, the problem is if it procs we usually only stay under 50% hp for a split second if that. We literally have to take >35% damage for it to even become available since we are going to heal 15% on big hits anyways. Its a small window that is just too short.
I think you are missing the point here. The issue is not rooted in Shield Spec VS Brawlers dual wielding. The issue is that plate tank shields are straight up superior to brawlers defensive stance. A brawler in defensive stance is equal to 2200 block protection shield. For a long time shields were capped around 2000 protection. This gave brawlers an avoidance advantage for a couple expansions. Some update ago shields started getting more and more protection with each content update which is fundamentally rewriting the balance between tanks. High end shields now have 2400+ protection. At the same time brawler weapons got worse as they are no longer itemized for +block chance. As I said the writing is on the wall. Brawlers as tanks are going extinct in the next few updates unless there are some serious changes to the way itemization is done. This is not something that can be written off by saying oh itemization has always been bad. NO this is class killing bad because every update makes us worse. These other issues that you trying to side track the thread with don't matter and I will not address them further because they are irrelevant. Brawlers and particularly monks never were and never will be a DPS class. Talking about stuff like extra weapons only marginalizes brawlers and enforces the Plate tank monopoly. _____________________________________________________
Had someone actually bothered to flat out explain what the issue was rather than belittle me about it perhaps the derailment about Brawler-Block vs Plate Shield wouldn't have happened. I also have agreed with you about the itemization mistakes such as the lack of reliable block % on your weapons. That is what I tried to agree with you on the first point, I miss-cited some information and got jumped on for it. What my point was is that the issue lies in itemization not so much skills. That got completely glossed over in the fact that someone decided that it was time to go on a rant about how I simply had never noticed an aspect of the combat mechanics.
It isnt just itemization but that does play a part. A perfect example of continued brawler shafting is Drinal who drops a crazy amazing shield for plates and drops a completely garbage weapon for brawlers. It should have dropped and offhand weap with the tanking equivilent of the shield instead its a garbage weapon that doesnt even have 2 white adorn slots. Again fundamentally when you make mobs hit harder and less frequent you undermine what makes brawlers effective. When you buff other classes and nerf or ignore monks they end up where they are now. As an example giving stonecold a 20% potency buff could make it at least a decent choice against CM.
my opinion on Monk things to be looked at. 1,Fluid Combination too weak. maybe +100% base dmg increase would be needed. 2,Wind of Salvation something should be done to this ability. maybe wind of serenity could add 15% DR per rank instead of heal component. 3,Depends on Dragonfire too much when it comes to AoE aggro management. Monks really need to go right line if you dont want to be very bad as AoE tank. Dragonfire itself as a single ability can be said to be OPed once you go right line, but the issue is Monks have almost nothing special other than dragonfire to hold multiple mobs. 4,No significant Hate transfer All Plate tanks still can use that item means Brawlers are far behind so as to Hate trasfer, which means Brawlers need more DPS or TPS to be on par with plate tanks especially when it comes to AoE aggro managemant. Not to mention shoulder the burden or Amends. Well, i dont think these Shield vs Dual Wield arguments are very important. Because what matters is always Overall DPS vs Overall TPS vs Overall Sruvivablity. SK and Pally have powerful spells and not being able to DW is nothing to them. Zeker's CAs got massive bumps when CoE introduced. Not sure but i heard now Zerk's ST-DPS on par with brawlers and of course AoE-DPS superior than brawlers. Guardian at least has shoulder the burden which helps, well honestly imo, in general Guardian is to be looked at. Because when death touch is not the issue then I dont find anything special which makes guardian more survivable than other tanks. Defensive minded could be more powerful. About Guardians Prestige almost everything is really to be revamped. I dont think it matters if guardian's DPS is low comapred to other tanks. But it matters when Guardians' survivability doesnt have any obvious superiority besides absorbing death touches. And it matters when Guardians' prestige wouldnt give anything significant to them. well,just my opinion, I may be wrong though. Thank you.
Very good points. 1. I am not sure that only doubling the Damage of Fluid Combination would be enough. On a training dummy for me, Fluid Combination did 8.8k out of a 300k parce. If it did 18k would I speck right side… probably not since I also lose the added survivability from the left side, so I would say for me to take Fluid Combination it would need to do 3-5 times what it is doing now. 2. Winds of Salvation, giving the monk 15% DR would help with this, also if it game the monk the AoE avoid that would help, I think. 3. The weakness I have always seen monks having is with AOE so I don’t have a problem leaving the monk weakness with AoE agro control. We can be very strong ST and AoE is something we can do if we try really hard at. 4. Hate Transfer, I also don’t have a problem with this, but it may be a gear thing for me. It would tho be nice if they changed the Hate Transfer on Tranquil Vision to be 10-15% and always pulling to us. This would give us the option to pull some agro in a group or raid if we need it. I also think that Itemization is the largest problem with Brawlers over all at the moment, but it’s not a new thing. Since about SF/DoV when they went to mostly scripted gear Itemization has gotten VERY BAD.
