Losing all 6 fabled mats on fail combine intended ?

Discussion in 'Tradeskill Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-Proud_Silence, Sep 30, 2012.

  1. ARCHIVED-WanyenII Guest

    CoLD MeTaL wrote:
    It might almost be worth getting banned to literally tell ya off for being such a knucklehead, but I won't.
    There is an implementation error in current tier crafted recipes. It is deemed an error, because current behavior breaks sharply with the pattern in place before for all other relevant failed combines. It is that simple.
    A crafter can screw up, or things can go out of their control in all manner and may interfere with the crafting process. Acts of nature if you must. There was no negligence, no ill-will, no malicious intent, no ineptitude.
    To hell with your combine and your components, if you want to blame me for a power outage, a phone or cable company outage, someone digging up the street who cuts wires, someone in the house unexpectedly resetting a shared router or modem, a server down, a or what I have experienced, a buggy interface, good luck. Being the kind of guy I am I would work with ya to petition for recovery, and if its a reasonably priced item that you wanted, I -may- supply the mats and make it for you, but beyond that find some other sucker, or buy it off my broker with some markup over the cost of components so I don't have to deal with you. I certainly didn't need the thing you wanted made.
    I would consider a roaming cat an act of nature in this context. I would consider a curious child who pecks at the wrong button or cabling an act of nature in this context. These are things that happen in the [now] typical gaming environment for many people. Putting the burden on crafters is wrong and bad.
  2. ARCHIVED-desaril11 Guest

    I was commissioning a raid earring the other day, and the crafters UI bugged, the combine was lost and all I got back was the osmium cluster. We BOTH petitioned. And I got all of my mats back. So its just a matter of filling out the form, and letting the GM refund you.
  3. ARCHIVED-Meirril Guest

    feldon30 wrote:
    Lets go down the list. 1) This isn't a bug. If you look at the recipe the harvested component is clearly the "primary" component. The dropped components are also clearly secondary components. When you fail a combine the dev sets what you get back. On handcrafted and shard recipes that was set to the fuel. On MC recipes that was set to the primary component. The current crafting dev made a choice and chose to return the harvested component. While I think this was a particullarly bad choice it was obviously made and intended or we would be getting back NOTHING on a failure. You can call this bad design, you can call it short-sighted. You can not call this decision a bug.
    2) We're making something new here. If we follow the progression handcrafted returns the fuel. Note: the most "expensive" portion of most handcrafted items are the resources. But the only reason the resources have any value is because we put it there. Nevemind that you can't buy most roots for less than a gold each, you get back 6c worth of fuel because that made sense to the devs. In MC the primary component was the choice. In shard recipes the fuel (shards) were the choice again. Fabled recipes *should* entail some loss. The fuel component is laughable. Heck, the harvested component is laughable. Why it was chosen to be returned is almost an insult to the crafter *but* it isn't like there is a fair determiner in any other case. What do you return? The 3 componet? The 2 component? The signle component? The hardest to obtain drops fall into all 3 categories over different recipes. There is no *fair* way to determin what to return unless your going to go through and customize it for every recipe. Unless you suggest that there should be a no-risk combine which begs the question of why bother to require a combine at all?
    3) Answer the question: What is it worth to you if you fail a fabled combine? What price are you willing to pay for failure? If your answer is none then we should NEVER have recived these combines and everything I've argued for the past 5 years was a waste of time. If you want the big reward, it comes with risks. If you arn't willing to risk why should you get the reward?
    4) I'm consistant. I really want us to be able to craft things that are in demand. If this is what dev thinks is fair, I'm willing to agree. Obviously I'm in the minority, but I think its because I think of this differently than the rest of you. I'm not thinking about myself, I'm thinking about crafting over all and its role in EQ2. These recipes mark a transition into something new. If we make enough of a stink about the risks, this might be the very last time we see fabled recipes. Did you take that into consideration?
  4. ARCHIVED-feldon30 Guest

    Meirril wrote:
    The chance of losing 1,200+ plat of materials because of a power blink, the EQ2 client crashing, an EQ2 server going down or a zone crashing, or an internet disconnection has NOTHING to do with the challenge or desirability of these items.
    There are few certain things in this world, but I can ABSOLUTELY 100% GUARANTEE you that the chance of accidentally losing all the materials was NOT figured into the power and balance of these items.
    You seem to believe that if SOE changed it so that failing these combines meant you got all the materials back, they would reduce the power of these items. I don't believe that for a second.
    You've just made it my life's mission to get this issue resolved. I'll talk to every dev at Fan Faire who will listen. Thanks.
  5. ARCHIVED-Meirril Guest

    feldon30 wrote:
    Power ballancing the items? Certainly not. The decision to give these recipes to crafters? Possibly. You are aware that the developers and proudcers of the game have had brief experiments with giving some fabled recipes to crafters, and that after every attempt they back off and discontinue that effort. Do you know why? Neither do I. But I do know that every time there has been a large amount of arguing for and against with calls for changes all along the way. One strong possability is that dealing with crafting fabled items just costs more dev time than its precieved value.
    Talking about precieved value, I honestly see this as a fluke issue. One that a good 99% of the time customer service will shrug and if you haven't abused their very generous policies they will reimburse you. Instead of a half day of dev time going into fixing this, I'd much rather see a half day spent fixing the quest to get the raid apprentice. I don't even care what that fix is, I just don't like it saying the quest is repeatable when it isn't. Either make it really repeatable or remove the tag. That is something that is clearly bugged and the fix seems perty easy one way or the other with no debate on what would be fair or not. It isn't like you'd have to look at 40ish recipes and decide for each one what you get back for each bar of completion to be "fair".
    Instead of rushing into fan fair and making demands, why not ask Omougi the reasoning he has behind it working this way? He is the dev that made this system, he is the dev most likely to change it, and he is the only one that could really answer if this is important or not. More than likely if he is consistant with his past decisions he'll completely flip and make this go from unreasonably hard to unreasonably easy just like he did with collosal made foods.
    But if its more important for you to get your way then by all means don't use a reasonable approach or attempt to understand the dev's intent. Have a great time in Vegas.
  6. ARCHIVED-Whilhelmina Guest

    imo, he probably just used the general "return the fuel", later amended in "return primary" and didn't search further.

    I think that those recipes should return all the materials on failure except for fuel and actual harvested rare.
  7. ARCHIVED-Ulrichvon Guest

    feldon30 wrote:
    Cause any penalty for failure beyond basic fuel costs, is totally unreasonable!
  8. ARCHIVED-Whilhelmina Guest

    The penalty was removed from the other recipes every time. At first it only returned fuel. Then it returned rares for mastercrafted, then it also returned the original item when an imbuing failed. Lately the shards where returned on a failed shard combine. The heroic/raid apprentices are the only recipes not returning the rares.
  9. ARCHIVED-Boethius_Permafrost Guest

    I like the innovation potion tip. I have never had a problem, but the UI bugging out or losing connection at the wrong time is fairly rare, so I'm lucky.
    But just because there might exist a player workaround for a bug doesn't change the fact that it need to be fixed, and this will reduce their customer service overhead. They have to verify and replace the loss every time this happens (in the best case scenario for soe), and even though it's rare for us, it's not rare for them (I expect). So fixing it now makes sense.
  10. ARCHIVED-feldon30 Guest

    Meirril wrote:
    I've been around long enough to know that this type of thing is rarely down to the "intent of the developer" but more often an oversight. After all, if devs were aware that it costs 1,200-1,800p of materials to make these things, they'd adjust the drop rates.

    Ulrichvon wrote:
    Cause the EQ2 game client crashing, or the server disconnecting, or the power blinking, or the internet connecting flaking it out and erasing 1,200 platinum of materials is player failure? If you failed to kill a raid mob and lost 1,800p, you'd be ok with that? I mean, you shouldn't have failed after all. It's your fault.
    Are you people even reading what you write or just dogmatically banging the "the game needs to be harder, and since crafters make soft targets, let's go after them" drum?
  11. ARCHIVED-Meirril Guest

    feldon30 wrote:
    So your saying that a loss of connection, server disconnect, or player-side error is a design flaw that needs to be taken into account and fixed by development instead of a one time reimbursment from customer service? If your going to accuse me of being too harsh, I'll throw it back at you and say you want the easy button and nothing less. Lets not even bring up the question of what would be a reasonable pentalty for failure for an item that involves 6 dropped components, 1 rare harvestable and a little fuel. Obviously because no developer is going to waste that much time and effort on a system of crafting that becomes obsolite in 2 months.
    Unless of course you think people will be farming SS and ST after we get 95 content. Kinda like all those people (not) farming Kael now.
  12. ARCHIVED-Ulrichvon Guest

    feldon30 wrote:
    I'm saying the current system and failure penalty was fine for us for 6 months or so that only raiders were making these items. Not even 2 weeks after the lazy masses get the access to materials to make it we have a thread demanding to make up for their slack.
    Somehow 6 months of raiders doing this caused no issue, but suddenly, in the twilight of the expansion and these recipes being used, its a big issue that there is a very real failure penalty.
    And back in June if a raider failed this combine, it was more like 10k plat of value lost.
    Ultimately my gripe here comes back to raid crafted gear now available to people doing simple heroic content. We had an issue of raids not dropping enough raid components, and the sollution delivered was to open it up to heroic content? Yeah, that made alot of sense.
  13. ARCHIVED-WanyenII Guest

    Ulrichvon wrote:
    FWIW, six months ago, up until ST, there wasnt enough mats for it to be a noticible issue.
    The number of combines a qualified TS'r would do would be so low, that if an issue arose, a petition would have been a slightly more reasonable solution for all parties involved. That dynamic has changed, and thus the 'penalty' should be adjusted. Or, an oversight can be corrected, however you feel comfortable looking at it.
    If you want 'hard-core' crafting, wear a blindfold and stand on your head while doing combines. That would impress me. Now, if only SOEmote would capture that moment...
  14. ARCHIVED-feldon30 Guest

    Ulrichvon wrote:
    You're not even trying to hide your belief that other players are beneath you and only worthy of contempt and sarcasm.
    It's a design flaw. It doesn't matter who discovered it. It doesn't matter that people can work around it by using a Progress potion or waving a dead chicken over their PC. It doesn't matter that someone was more harmed by the flaw 6 months ago than they are now. It's still a flaw.
  15. ARCHIVED-Ulrichvon Guest

    feldon30 wrote:
    What recipe in game returns more than the primary component on failure?
    Seems that is the system as it is designed. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    Yes, I think its stupid to have raid crafted gear coming from heroic instances, that has little to do with contempt or where I vew people.
  16. ARCHIVED-WanyenII Guest

    It doesn't. It comes from a crafter who has a raid dropped research assistant, which unless something else has changed, is certainly not impossible, but it is generally a lot less 'trivial' to acquire. By the time those raid dropped research assistants are so prevelant that everyon has one, the content/items they produce will be completely irrelevant for all intents and purposes.
    And before you go down the path of 'well they can be purchased off the broker', let me suggest thats no different than a raid dropped item that is sold via SLR. It happens, but those who acquire via SLR generally pay pretty dearly for it.
  17. ARCHIVED-Meirril Guest

    feldon30 wrote:
    Or just pay attention to a crafting combine, playing conservative with durability counters, and not having someone or something interrupt the player, his computer or internet connection. Seriously, when was the last time you failed a non-quest combine? The last time I did was over 2 years ago and it was because I used nothing but progress-progress-progress counters for the entire combine! I still do that on combines I don't care about and I can usually mix in enough durability at the end to counter any failures or crit failures.
    But this obviously needs to be fixed. Because dev wants to take responsability for player or ISP failure.
  18. ARCHIVED-Ulrichvon Guest

    Meirril wrote:
    There is nothing to fix. The mechanics of tradeskilling is on a failed combine only the primary component is returned.
    This is expected behavior, its reinforced by years of standards, and its not unexpected with these recipes. I don't think its a wise use of resources to add new special conditions for just these recipes.
  19. ARCHIVED-Mermut Guest

    Ulrichvon wrote:
    Your basic assumption is incorrect. When ry'gorr armor used shards, a fail returned the gem and the shards. Drunder armor returns the special 'ores' and the shards. In the past the all of the 'special components' have been returned on a failed combine. These just happen to be the first recipes that ALL of the components are 'special components'.
  20. ARCHIVED-Meriel Guest

    Meirril wrote:
    Because, obviously, that's always possible. You obviously live on your own island where a car never hits a telephone pole and knocks out your power, or freaks of nature suddenly happen, right?
    Feldon isn't saying the devs need to "take responsibility" for an ISP failure. He is saying they should minimize the absolutely horrific consequences of something that falls under the "s--- happens" category, which is NO ONE'S fault. It's just....s--- happens.