take a survey - - no info - no extra words- or your vote wont be considered - (if you look at it long enough - just post ) TANK - DPS DPS - TANK Message Edited by SageMarrow on 03-06-2005 01:41 AM
We already have a thread like this. Also you are a bruiser, not a monk. If you would like to post a thread about how you feel the bruiser should be balanced, please do so in your own forum. Besides your arguement is already flawed. 1) Fighters are tanks first. That is our primary role. 2) Our DPS is soon to be lowered so that mages/scouts out damage us as intended. So you can wish all you want, but nothing will change the fighter tree into a damage dealing archtype. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-06-2005 02:46 AM
Why change my monk from a DPS machine to a semi tank? We will never be on par with a guardian, not even half a guardian. I picked monks because they can DPS and take a hit unlike scouts, thus making them very worthy secondary tanks. If Sony are going to lower our damage output, then we are playing a very weak berzerker. I say we should ask Sony to up our DPS instead. Currently scouts are picked over monks for their DPS and evac abilty, if we can increase our DPS to above scouts then I think groups will have more options to choose from.
Been there, done that...this has been up and down on the forums before both in the monk section and in the bruiser section. If you want to be a DPS class then go roll a mage or a scout and stop bothering the rest of the community with lame posts.
Yeah, so I've been listening to the arguements and discussions about our role since well before I even started playing. I read up about the archetype system, and was going to play a Monk regardless, even though they're 'supposed' to be tanks now, and not DPS. I played a Ranger in EQ1... Wish I hadn't. Monks were so much cooler, and had unique abilities, and at *least* they had a role with FD pulling, as compared to Rangers who were gimped Warriors with spells. I'm level 37 now, and to be quite honest, I can't stand tanking. I can't stand it for more than one reason. One, I enjoy the role of being a secondary tank, saving the group from adds, taunting off of Priest/Mages, ect. Second, we pump out pretty good DPS now. Not *quite* on par with Scouts, but close. At least in my experience. Besides that, if I remember correctly, Scout damage was supposed to be from *arts*, not from toe to toe Melee damage. From that standpoint, wouldn't it make sense that we do more DPS? Especially if it takes awhile for high damage scout arts to refresh. I don't know, my scout is a whopping level eight, but anywho... I suppose I'm in the Majority of people who don't mind not being able to tank, especially considering we do it so much worse. I understand that Gage, Gangster, and others have tanked to 50, and I think that's great, I really do. But our tools are limited, and we can't do it as good as *anyone* else, not just Guardians. At least, this is what happens in my experiences. I've rambled. I didn't want my first post here on the Monk board to be so long winded, and I'll continue to play my Monkie no matter what, as I love the class. And like the previous poster just noted, that's another reason why I haven't vocalized my thoughts before. I'm *already* tired of hearing, 'u want dps roll a scout omg loser'. If I wanted to be a scout, I would have *been* a scout. -Ilina Moon 37 Monkie Antonia Bayle
The point is though that those of us who are playing the class as intended (especially the guys like Gangster who left EQ1 because the monk class got nerfed into such a horrible role, do not want to see our class ruined in EQ2. I understand that some of you do not like being a tank. The problem is that is what this class is, and that is what people like me will be fighting for. We are not supposed to be the exact same as guardians, but we are supposed to be able to tank everything they can (including raid content) just a different way and normally at a slight disadvantage to their superior defense (which we make up for with our DPS). We will never have our DPS increased above scouts, and we will never be so close to them that they do not have the distinct advantage. That isn't balanced, the game is currently going through a series of balance changes in regards to damage, and I assure you when they are finished we will be in our rightful spot (below mages/scouts, higher than every other fighter except bruiser). The fact is that those of you who want to continue to DPS really aren't in the right class. I assure you that our damage will be adjusted so that the scout archtype can actually fill their role against other scouts (melee dps/utlity) and not other scouts and monks/bruisers. So either you start tanking and see if its something you enjoy and hope that the raid game gets balanced like the live game (where in almost every scenario any fighter class can tank, although there are advantages/disadvantages to each one depending on the situation/group); or you really should consider another class. The main thing to remember is "Fighter = Tank" and that is how the class will be played and balanced. While I'm not saying you'll have to MT to enjoy monk, I do hope that the balance swings in the direction of tanking for us and not such a clearcut focus by other players on our DPS. It isn't fair to our class and it certainly isn't fair to the scouts who are supposed to be melee damage kings. Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on 03-06-2005 10:35 AM
Aija, there's a differnce though between your posts and the OP. It's been all too common since the launch of the game to see one liner posts, or longer rants about how people want to impose a view on others that we are a DPS class and not a tank class, people who fail to understand what the fighter classes are meant to be and wants the vision to fit their own. What everyone has to understand is that this game might as well have been called Wild adventures in fantasy land rather then EQ2. Because it's so very differnt in the class structures when you have more then one primary tank class, it breaks away from the whole the Guardian/Warrior is supposed to be THE tank periode, and allthough there is some severe unballances between the plate classes and the light armor tanks, the overall goal is still, and has been since launch, to have all fighter archtypes functioning as viable tanks. You dont have to keep quiet at all, you just have to avoid writing posts like the OP in this thread
Yeah, I know you guys are right. I DO know the main role of our class. I just am having trouble getting used to it. And I don't want to be something else...I want to be a monk. I wanna be the chick from The House of Flying Daggers. The girl from Hero, the Woman in Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon....I..I wanna be the female Kwai Chang Caine....../tantrum. /sigh.
Tank & DPS you fools. Don't you realize what a monk is. We use 'clean and efficient counter attacks' <--- taken from Sony. I love tanking cause people don't think we can. Don't get me wrong, if a plate class on par with me is in group, he will tank and i'll do DPS. Just stop trying to change the first good monk change in 5 years. Monks always should have been tanks in some manner, i'm just glad in this game I don't have to be in the top 10% percentile of geared monks to be able to tank. /cough eq1
Gage, there are a couple of things you always comletely fail to address ..... 1) The general perception is that Monk = DPS. The player base looks at us as DPS. It is highly unlikely that this will change. Why ? Because Plate classes will always tank better then us. If we tank as good as a plate class, then why should a group ever choose a plate wearer with thier inferior DPS ? Do you honestly think that the Guardians will stand for this ? I know that in the world according to Gage you want to be the MT in Raids. I'm sure that as long as you are happy, everything will be fine. However, I would like to enjoy grouping with other people in this game. I would like to be able to get in pick up groups .... and we are labled as DPS by 90%+ of the player base. I NEVER .... NEVER get asked to join a group to be their main tank. I get asked based on the thinking that I can add DPS to the group. If our DPS gets nerfed down to horrible levels we will rarely be asked to join groups. ( Although I'm sure you don't care because as long as you can MT Raid content for your Guild, you could care less ). 2) We have one Group taunut. It has an effective range of jack-squat ( 10 m ). Oh .... and it is on a 30 second timer ! Again, in Gage's World, I'm sure that is just fine with you because as long as you can tank Raid Content you are happy. However, in the REAL world, where we are all not lv 50 yet ( I am 42 ) holding agro, especially from MULTIPLE MOB encounters can be difficult. If we are to truely be equil tanks then we need to be able to hold agro better ! Again, this is something that you never addess.
Just for you then, I will. Lets begin. 1) Perceptions change, it just takes time. A) I don't care B) Not the entire player base. Oh its very likely to change. In fact its changed a lot just since release and we still aren't fully balanced. Oh yes, you brought up my FAVORITE anti-tanking arguement. Let me explain something to you: Except for some minor tweaks, all of the fighters can tank all of the content (except raids) from lvl 1 to 50. I've done it as a monk, Jez has done it as a bruiser, Toggah did it as a Paladin, Lanirab did it as an SK, Achilles did it as a guardian, Asteria did it as a berserker. These are all people I know who tanked from 1 to 50 with their fighter of choice on all mobs (including named) in various group setups (mostly pickup) and they efficiently (in some cases were the first) grinded to level 50. What does this mean for the loved "but omg if monks can tank and have better dps than guardians, then why be a guardian!" arguement. It means its full of rectal refuse. The game is already balanced like that. No one complains. Because every class is doing things as intended. There are a few changes that need to be made (zerkers need less DPS/ more defense) monks/bruisers need to quit outdamaging scouts, sk/pallys have a lot of skills that need fixed; but overall each of us can tank from 1 to 50, in various group setups, just fine. Our DPS isn't a trade off in tanking ability at all, its a trade off for the lack of HP/mitigation and defense the guardian has. The guardian has the edge in all tanking from 1 to 50, but they aren't the only class who can do it. Any class can, and our flavor and utility make up for what we lack. In the guardians case this is defense at the cost of offense, and in our case its defense at the case of offense NEITHER of which affect our overall ability to tank. Working as intended. If they balance raids this way, we'll be good to go. Don't let guardians fool you, they have very nice offtank buffs and group buffs some of which aren't currently working. Their DPS while the lowest of the fighters (isn't nothing) and they can adequately provide damage when needed (which isn't often). Besides when monk/bruiser DPS gets lowered, or scouts raised the descrepancy won't be near as bad as it is now. I don't care if guardians will "stand for it" or not, they already have no problem with overall balance as they are "the best" pure tank. Yet monks/bruisers still stand by them daily MTing for their grind groups. You see plenty of guardians grinding and hitting 50, while monks/bruiser and sk/pallys are doing the same, I fail to see an imbalance that would lead to guardians being obsolete. It isn't going to happen. A lot of which I'll point back at your use of the term perception. Because people think guardians are the "best" tank without a doubt, they will always be picked to MT regardless of their lackluster offense. Sucks when your words work against you eh? No no. Not in my world, its in SoE's world. Fighters = tanks. Raids = content. We can already tank all other content efficiently besides raids and as I've showed the game is balanced. In fact numerous paladins are posting their raid tanking accomplishments daily and you don't see people fleeing the guardian class do you? Nope. Normal mob tanking is 99.9% of this game, which all fighters can do. Guardians get groups, get xp and ding 50 like every other fighter. They have no reason to have exclusive rights to raid content, as contrary to your opinion, that is imbalancing the archtype, not the opposite. Sorry for your misfortune. I made a name for myself as a monk main tank. So have many others. Excuse me if I fail to pity you being asked to group as DPS. I'm pretty sure its because you want to DPS, don't like tanking and its probably easy to tell in the way you play the game, as it certainly is conveyed by your posts. Trust me, I'm doing this as much for you DPS lovers as I am the rest of the class. This way you can hate me before your DPS is lowered (or scouts is raised) instead of being shocked when it happens. I'm trying to educate you about the class so that when its balanced and we are changed, it won't hurt you guys so bad. Listen, I do care. But I'm sorry that you picked a tank class that isn't balanced damage wise yet as your basis for group desirability. That is flawed logic. This isn't EQ1 or any other game. Research will show you numerous dev posts showing that fighters = tanks, brawlers = tanks and that scout DPS is intended to always be higher than fighter DPS. I'm not wishing you ill-will, so please refrain from trying to make me look like an evil dictator. Again, I do NOT care about player perception. IF SoE was stupid enough to balance the classes in line with player perception, then I guarantee you player's would start to perceive some pretty crazy things. 2) I'm aware. We have an AoE that has a 20 second timer, if you choose it. Again, this is SoE's world, not mine. If holding aggro on group mobs is difficult for you, then I suggest you read one of the excellently written strategies on this board or the bruiser board written by the people who enjoy monk/bruiser tanking. Keep in mind that group buffs add a lot of hate to your list, and using them on pulls in conjunction with your taunts will easily allow you to remain at the top of the hate list. Also as a MT you should be focusing on taunting/buffing not spamming your combat arts. While a stun/silence is good here and there, conserve your power for taunts and taunt as much as possible to ensure you are controlling aggro. Tanking isn't about doing damage, its about aggro control, which I can attest to this class being more than efficient in when played correctly. Holding aggro is something I choose not to address because we have tons of monks in here who posts parses/logs/experiment/strategies for the basics of playing the class and being a tank. I'm currently devoting my time to balancing our class towards the high end raid encounters, and getting things fixed. Not teaching people how to play the class from the beginning. As I stated we have numerous strat posts on here that you can read in order to become a more skilled tank.
lmao Gage, you only reinforce what I have said. It is indeed obvious that you "don't care" as you clearly stated twice. As long as Gage gets what Gage wants then everything is fine. Gage wants to be able to tank High End Raid encounters and until Gage gets Monks nerfed down to pethetic DPS and the ability to tank anything a Guardian can, then Gage will not be happy. Maybe you are one of the fortunate ones who always has guildies to group with. Maybe you rarely ever needed to spend time /lfg. However, those of us who actually have can attest that we get invited to groups because the general perception is that we are DPS. How many slots are reserved in groups for a Tank ? ONE. However, most groups have 2 - 3 spots for DPS. You keep calling for our DPS to be nerfed and you will reduce our chances to get into pick up groups greatly. Again, we know you "don't care". Gage is Level 50 and Gage wants to tank Raid content. Gage does not care about the rest of the Monk Community as long as Gage get's what Gage wants.
unless we can tank exactly as good or better then guardians we will never be the core mt. pretty simple, why take a tank thats even 2% less effective when you don't have to? perhaps this is being looked at the wrong way, maybe encounters themselves can be adjusted to make different types of tanks more applicible. Take for example the high (supposedly) avoidence rather then mitigation that the guardian has, If this was working correctly you could have a boss mob that hits for 140's But very very very fast, rather then a boss that hits for 1500's. givin an even distribution of avoidence checks it would cut down on spikes a lot, rather then failing 3 checks in a row and dropping dead. if the mitigation was balanced correctly such a mob would rip though a mitigation tank.
gage shut up = ur wrong - ur wrong - and then ur wrong again if you look at the game then you will know and see that even from the adventure pack the game is geared toward the highest pocket of players - they even said it multiple times that pocket is 30-45 and that will fluxuate constantly because its when people really get into the other branches of the game such as rolling alts- tradeskilling - heritage questing - armor farming etc- NOT everyone running around with 3 lvl 50 CHARS. lol = thats not how the other 349,999 players play outside of you gage, being level 50 at this point in the game w/ all the bugs changes etc going on is a MAJOR accomplishment and illustration of how much that person plays. people have lives and if you cant find a grp on a wednsday night - everyone isnt inclined to go and kill turtles for .0003%exp - they do what others do and go play a lower level char w/ 99/99% vitality - DUH.. or they work on that tradeskilling they have been slacking on so they cator the game to the masses at that time - not the ardent legions and gage mickels of the game - sorry. otherwise - youre wrong again on the note of the class being balanced to tank - who actually believes they would give us a buff to use in tanking situations? thats what a taunt is for lol- and yes the guardians dont want us stepping on their territory - get a clue - you are merely hoping they will be okay with it - if and when they do it. u dont have enough aggro management to handle a raid mob- ur best taunt and buff combo is NOT enough to keep up with a wiz's dps or a scouts-assasins 6000dmg art lol. spamming low level taunts to keep aggro when the average zerker or gaurdian has them built in to thier attacks as well as 1 taunt that out classes you spamming everything you have = just stupid why compete - you were just given FD and invis for fluff...umm yeah= NO- - scout abilites= life saving - ability - we were give shrug off so that we could use it on the grp bard??? NO 1600AC to cast on someone else just for fluff??? ASSIST ABILITY. so no= we will more than likely be left alone - zerkers may be twinked (doubt it) - guardians may be twinked - but the only way to make raid mobs adapt to fit us would be to give it 50,000 less HP so that your dps can make an impact lol - not happening or for them to take away the buffs on their agility - and our agility ratio that was an issue that had scouts tanking anything.... so ummm = we know that aint happening - our skills and agility is tied to the scouts - so that for one = lol= aint happening - you cant think past ur own ****. on top of that = you tend to forget that there is another portion of this game that is still yet to come - ther will more than likely be some time of war between the two cities - there are arenas around the cities- this game is also balanced around that as well so that it will be entertaining on that level. cause i promise you soe is working on that - thats what over half of the player community is waiting on - so if we are just another tank- lol what would be the fun in that? finally - it is fine that we out dps scouts SOMETIMES cause we arent supposed to be MT all the time - we have 1/4 of thier utility - which i promise for a scout is fine if they are behind us 1/2 -1/4 of the time in dps . i would openly trade off a portion of my dps for evac and pathfinding LOL_ i know alot of people who would - so us being close to scouts in dps is fine as heck = cause we would be perfect - and really are perfect if they fix whats already wrong or bugged. dps that can take a punch in a pinch - which is our roll as given - they arent changing raid mobs- if anything look at the vox thing - they are making them HARDER - cause for the most part they need to be- once a raid mob is OOP- its a sitting duck - and easily over powered. what makes you think they would adjust you or your damage or your mitigation so that you can tank a mob thats already ""not hard enough"?? for that matter they would have to change Light Armor values across the board- so what would be the point in wearing medium armor at that point??? then if they twink medium- oh crap - the scouts tank as good as we did pre-32% patch. dude like i said - you dont think past ur own butthole.. enough said
You really have no clue, do you? Where did I say "tanking like a guardian"? The monk class as a whole SHOULD be able to tank raids. All fighters should. If you feel the best DPS of the fighter tree while behind bruisers is "pathetic" DPS, then SoE is nerfing us, not me. I only want balance. Outdamaging scouts isn't balance. Please don't assume. Its bad form. http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild_roster.vm?guildId=56101 There is the link to my guild. Not one of them is lvl 38, the required lvl to group with me and get xp. Let alone close enough to raid content suitable for my lvl. So you are wrong. Until mentoring goes live I hardly get to play with my guildies except for on my alt. When I first started playing on the day of release I had no guild. I MT for pick up groups from 1 to 50. The entire way. Never, not once ever, was I in a "guild group" on my voyage from 1 to 50. Plenty of times I got asked to group as DPS, but I either a) declined or b) showed them that monks are MT. If a higher lvl fighter was in the group, then I of course conceded and was off tank. I'm not some super hero, I'm not a member of FoH or AL or some uber guild who had set groups from 1 to 50. I'm just a normal guy who bought the game and got groups where he could and got to 50, being MT almost 95% of that time. Yes. How many archtypes are tanks? One. How many archtypes are damage? Two. Its beyond me why you want to compete with scouts and mages for their primary role instead of filling your own. Nobody in this game is guaranteed a group. If ANYTHING you are going to cause our DPS to be decreased because I am 100% positive the devs do NOT intend for monks/bruisers to be competing with mages/scouts for DPS slots. No, no I won't. I, and many others, continue to get pickup groups as tanks, because we are tanks. It will reduce your chance to take a scouts spot in a pickup group, but once again you rolled a tank class, deal with it. Also I'm not calling for monk/bruiser damage to be nerfed, simply balanced. "Again, we know you "don't care". Gage is a Level 50 tank. Gage wants to tank Raid content. Gage cares about the rest of the Monk Community as long as it is balanced for its intended role, which is tanking." If you are gonna quote me, do it right. You can view me as egotistical and arrogant all you want, because I'm right.
Sure we will. Guardians tank normal content 1 to 50 better than monks, but monks can tank it sufficiently. Its not about being better.
