Kaladim Raid Adjustments

Discussion in 'General TLE Discussion' started by dreamweaver, Jul 17, 2020.

  1. Naneeje Well-Known Member

    I'll put in my 2cp as a casual but decent raid force.
    We were short a healer, we had 3 new level 80's were our only challenges to a successful series of pulls.

    As the main tank, with two healers, I was getting one shotted for 38k from Tairiza, not often, but once very 2-3 minutes. (Guardian), I burned out my buffs and when my healer was sacked, it was difficult for one healer to keep me up.
    Sacs have less health and were killable with our 70-80k raidwide dps split. We can do 130-150 on trash, but on names where we separate, we were putting roughly 70-80k on the sacs. They were going down, but not before one would spawn again, and we almost always had two sacs up.

    We saw 41% once, we saw 45% 20-30 times before she healed to 50%. We just couldn't prevent the deaths, 2 healers in OT, 2 healers in MT, 1 in scout, 1 in mage. We don't intend on running two mage groups just to beat content, we just want everyone to play what they want, but within reason setting up a force. Yes, we have a predator who does well, and we have 1 necro.

    But, my issue is that we can clear Pawbuster, first couple names in Temple of Kor'sha, and we will probably do well in PR tomorrow night for our first try. So why is Thuuga, which is the Tier 1 raid equivalent of the easiest zone, probably one of the tougher to get through, considering 4 other guilds reported failure in this zone last night alone.
    For the elites, and well played, dedicated guilds, or guilds who have cleared it, are we looking at the strat wrong? Sac spawns, kill the sac, keep everyone healed, keep everyone cured, at 40% we should start seeing adds, correct? We never used the door method, we just waited till the sacs were fixed.
    If many, (not all because I know some of you have cleared it), but if many guilds are reporting issues, I'm not sure JUST fixing tank gear is going to fix this issue. I don't remember getting multiple sacs on people on live, 3-4.
    Thanks and hopefully Tank gear will be restored next Tuesday and hopefully someone take another look at the Queen and make sure the sacs are coming correctly.
    9:45:03 sac spawn
    9:45:31 sac spawn
    9:45:32 sac spawn
    9:46:04 sac spawn
    9:46:28 sac spawn
    9:46:29 sac spawn.

    I don't remember two sacs spawning at once, so keep an eye out for this. And.. if you could help me out with your strat to combat two sacs at once? Thanks!
  2. Milksteak New Member

    Thanks for those that posted the information from Discord. Why they cannot relay that information to the forums themselves is beyond me. It is your own website and you choose instead to communicate through a 3rd party chat/video/voice app instead...baffling. I should not have to install discord to get up to date information from the development team.
    Kittik likes this.
  3. Athilia Member

    Thank you DBG for the update and breaking everything. VP is now a joke of a zone - but hey adjusting mob output damages fixed itemization.

    At this point, when will you really listen to those that have provided actual game input/feedback? Itemization for this expansion was a joke when launched back in live ages ago - and now after several years and a few more TLEs, it’s still done wrong.

    Yet I’m here playing this game and a few more others. Y’all have issues and so do I
    Dude likes this.
  4. dreamweaver Community Relations

    After reviewing the changes made to raids over the weekend, the dev team has decided to not make global changes to itemization at this time, but will still be changing/fixing some individual items as time allows. They will also be adding some new items in to fill some gaps in itemization. They are looking at both short term and long term changes.
    Breanna likes this.
  5. Jandraligeli Member


    So that's the server over then. Good luck with the vanity project which is live.
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  6. dorotea Well-Known Member

    Milksteak is entirely correct. We shouldn't have to go to multiple places to get information on significant matters from the developers. These are the official forums and they should be posted here.

    Jandraligeli is less right. Because the team is working to fix something in not quite the way he or she wants the server is now "over". A bit of an overreaction - no? Patience young not-padawan.
  7. Sixgauge Well-Known Member

    This is absolutely pathetic.
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  8. Sixgauge Well-Known Member

    This fiasco has been so awful, it literally inspires me to work even harder at my job in real life. I would be embarrassed and mortified to check in and deploy such broken changes completely UNTESTED... and then to just dust their hands off and call it good, unbelievable.
    Dude likes this.
  9. Listad New Member

  10. Daker New Member

    Back when these expansions were new, and the direction of the game uncharted, it was the mechanic and itemization changes with Destiny of Velious that caused me to quit; it wasn't that previous items were changed, it was that new mechanics made them irrelevant, and the new items were simply dull. That was 2010.

    Here is a quote from Feldon in 2013 published in EQ2Wire:

    In Kyle “Kander” Vallée‘s interview with EQ2Talk this spring, he candidly shared his frustrations with Stat Consolidation and his plans to bring back Player Choice and Variety in itemization.

    Considering that Live servers items have devolved into being essentially single stat - resolve - is it any wonder that TLE now follows suit with all items having the same two blue stats, and the fascinating formula of either 1 or 2 more blue stats if solo or heroic/raid? That's compelling enough to make someone play for hours to get one.

    What happened, Kander?

    Samuel Johnson wrote that "What is written without effort is often read without pleasure." With slight variation, I can't help but think that that sentiment is applicable here.
    Rosyposy likes this.
  11. Mountbatten Well-Known Member

    It makes me wonder what, if any, source control was being used back then, and what has happened in the meantime to essentially make that all inaccessible, if that is indeed the case. The last company I worked at, you could pick practically any point in time in the last 15 years, checkout any specific commit you wanted, and theoretically have a basic working build within a couple hours, seed data and all. And if you just wanted to see what the code was back then, all you needed was a web browser and some patience.

    I know that EQ2 has undergone plenty of structural changes since then, so it's not like you can just checkout an old build, compile it, and expect it to work. Even if they do have everything going back that far, the amount of work required to make it work in the modern client/server is probably significant. Hell, it took Blizzard what, 2 years to make Classic, and they had far more resources allocated to it, and they had all the data and code. So unfortunately, as much as I'd love to see a return to the old-style stats and itemization, I expect without a significant investment, getting EQ2 TLE to a place similar to pre-DoV would be a pretty mammoth task. So what then, going forward? It seems that if we are going to have to stick with modern mechanics and stat formulas, how does one make TLE compelling, when one of the defining features of old EQ2, namely variety and choice in itemization, is no longer viable? As it seems like if the status quo remains unchanged, we're forever going to be in a cycle of the same problems.
  12. Zenji Well-Known Member


    You must be new here.
    Dude likes this.
  13. TethysKaladim New Member


    Personally it seems to me like you lot have ruined things so thoroughly and completely that you're now utterly unconfident of your ability to even attempt to rectify your flaming dumpster fire without royally ******* up absolutely everything even more than you already have. Although of course there's the whole limited resources thing as well.

    It is not a defensible position to essentially de-itemise the vast majority of gear previously treated as tank gear by removing Health and Mitigation and/or Block, such that the overwhelming majority of Tank BIS items are now largely from solo overland quests and obscure solo/heroic mobs. How ludicrous is it that quest items I acquired during the first few days of the expansion and immediately transmuted are now, by horrifically poor control of your own game property, BIS items. The total betrayal of proper risk vs reward here is similarly awful - i.e., complete a certain set of overland quests and obtain a near full set of BISs, but clear the t1 and t2 raids for a couple weeks in a row to find not a single useable tank item with either Health nor Mitigation, yet alone both of them.

    And obviously this is not just a matter of raid difficulty. Personally I would have unreservedly supported increasing Melee Multipliers and Potency for all raid mobs, rather than decreasing them, assuming that Tank Gear was actually itemised using the common sense and good judgment of a 5 year old.

    That you lot would casually announce last week that instead of rectifying the initial issue (breaking tank gear, along with a few other things) that you would instead attempt to compensate for your monumental **** up by directly adjusting raid mob difficulty instead is tragically comical. As is your sheer audacity in equally casually announcing that you now have no intention to immediately globally re-itemise (i.e. fix) tank gear, and that our only option is to grin and bear it as you savagely and mercilessly **** us all in the ***.

    I'm no coder myself but how terrible is your control of your own product such that with a whole week of time you've been unable to select all Tank-flagged items and then insert Health/Mitigation at the expense of all other Blue stats? Not a perfect fix of course, but at least a workable and functional beginning. And if you don't already have items flagged by role, an entire week isn't enough time for one or more people to go through the database and select a sample of RoK items (t1-t7 could've been saved for later) to now be treated as Tank items?


    Overall, stupendously hideous job. Please review your reduction in subscriber numbers over the past week or so in order to assess the results of your experiment.
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  14. Milksteak New Member

    I'm going to try and take a glass is half full approach to this. I would have loved to see the result of these changes if they released it as part of or just before the RoK release, rather than multiple weeks into the expansion. If tank classes knew that their tank gear was going to be more scarce and used that to better inform decisions on quest rewards or looting items would we still have such an issue? Has anyone leveled a tank from lets say 60-80 or so post nerf with the new normal? It would be interesting to hear the results of that journey...did you end up with a decent set of quest level tank gear to take into dungeons? Was is still a huge issue once you hit max level to round out your tank set?

    If it wasn't too bad, then the real issue here is timing not with itemization. I do think DPG deserves criticism for the timing and quality control of this change but if we ultimately end up in an ok place is it something worth just dealing with and moving on?
  15. Seth Active Member

    no thanks.
  16. Fikkif New Member

    This is pathetic. Horrible job. Terrible decision.
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  17. TethysKaladim New Member


    Well, here's how you can think about it.
    Imagine that there's a patch and suddenly at least 9/10 of the items on your Priest or Mage which have two of Casting Speed, Reuse, and Ability Mod suddenly have NONE OF THE ABOVE. And imagine that this is not just t8 items, but actually across the board, so includes your t7 raid gear as well. And also imagine that this is not just raid gear, but heroic gear also. This means that if you now want to acquire a set of gear that can in any meaningful sense be called the "best" or the "most functional" set that you're capable of acquiring, then your only choice is to specifically seek out the MASSIVE MINORITY of Mage/Priest items (mostly through solo overland quests) that by some anomalous fluke evaded the nerf bat and actually have the appropriate blue stats on them. And this also means the overwhelming sense of futility and pointlessness that accompanies your heroic dungeon runs as well as your guild raids where 9/10 (95 or 99% is probably closer tbh) of Mage/Priest items that drop from these situations will clearly and obviously be unsuited to your class.

    It's not just timing. Regardless of the timing, this is brutal. It's brutal and accidental and game-destroying. Yeah there's a little bit of dramatics here, but ultimately what's happened is the accidental de-itemising of the vast majority of an entire role's (i.e. tanks) equipment, AND the conscious decision on the part of the people who manage this game to declare no intention to immediately remedy this. As such, I really don't believe that the majority of the negative responses that have followed are overreactions.
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  18. Milksteak New Member


    Don't get me wrong, there were definitely a lot of mistakes made here on the part of DPG. When people are linking guardian only raid armor that has spell casting stats on it clearly could not have been intentional and just got swept up in a script and other similar situations there really is no defense. I guess my point was to separate the first part of your post (i.e. current items you were tanking with now not having tank stats) versus the second part of your post (lack of tank items in general). I think the frustration of a lot of people is that they are feeling the compounded effected of both of these changes simultaneously. Basically, they have to replace most if not all of their gear all at the same time from a dramatically (and overly) reduced pool.

    Those two problems have different answers. Unfortunately for the first one, I think the ship has sailed. I hope I'm wrong but I don't see any reversal of changes already made. But if they augment existing loot tables on lets say 50% of the bosses in dungeons and raids to have a tank piece that can drop does that fix the second problem? Is there general consensus that if you manged to find a full set of gear with +defense skills, mitigation, block, +hp, etc that you would be in good shape to tank raids?

    To be honest I get the impression from the latest post that they are sort of willing to deal with the blowback in RoK on Kaladim to try and get it right going forward in the next expansion and future TLE servers. As someone who has invested heavily into this server that is frustrating and something I would not want to hear but it may be the reality we're dealing with.
  19. dirgenoobforreal Well-Known Member

    You make it sound like these issues are new and players are overreacting. They are not. They had since 2015 to get several of these TLEs ready and up to standard. That is 5 years and raid progression and gear progression is still HORRIBLE despite having 5 years and 3 PvE and 2 PvP servers where they could have shown they wanted to release and support a proper product.

    Its a mystery anyone can still have hope they will make these TLE servers enjoyable after all this time and all these attempts.
    Snikkety likes this.
  20. TethysKaladim New Member


    Nah I completely disagree. Timing is irrelevant. If this had happened from the getgo, do you honestly believe people wouldn't be similarly upset? Yeah sure if that was the case then people would still have the whole expansion to play through before they became so disenchanted with things that significant people quit. But the awareness of how broken the situation is would still be clear and plain to see, and it wouldn't take long before people became so fed up that accounts began being cancelled in substantial numbers.

    It's not even only that (i) 99% of all existing tank gear was de-itemised (i.e. Health and Mit removed), and that (ii) there is a current radical under-abundance of Fighter gear that has either Mit or Health yet alone both, as well as (iii) any tank wanting to acquire their BIS items now needs to spend tens of hours trekking around the overland zones performing trivial tasks in order to gain equipment that outperforms 99% of heroic gear and 99% of raid gear.

    It's also the fact that DBG first stated they would address the problem, then decided to adjust raid mob difficulty instead, and then later said they had changed their mind and that they're not going to directly address the problem after all - this is what they mean when they say "...the dev team has decided to not make global changes to itemization at this time, but will still be changing/fixing some individual items as time allows. They will also be adding some new items in to fill some gaps in itemization. They are looking at both short term and long term changes." In other words, they globally ruined all (99% at least) of Fighter gear, and they now refuse to globally reverse that. Instead what they're pledging to do is to very slowly (I assure you) drip-feed properly itemised Fighter gear back into the ecosystem. This will take months. They really have very spectacularly broken their own server, and evidently they are incapable of fixing it in any even remotely reasonable time frame.
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