Just want to say TY TY TY I LOVE TS EXP BONUS ON WRITS

[p]Deson, I believe you are thinking the faction gained from simply leveling is going to have a larger impact than it will. I'll use my Tailor as an example. She was level 62 before the exp came to writs. She made all her common recipes for pristines. She also made herself Woven leather for each tier up to T6 as she is only a 53 Warden. She also made a set of cloth for the Conjuror she leveled up with. Other than that she did a comission here and there, but 90+% did writs to fill in the leveling gaps, all at Tunare's Pages. At level 62 she had 17kish faction with them. I tailored for about 45 minutes just after the update and she is now 74% into 63 and has 18K faction exactly. to get to 70 will take her approximately 30 more writs rewarding 4500 status so she will hit the second faction tier. With the new bonus, people will not reach this tier accidently as a by-product of leveling. No one is going to become an ally to tradeskill faction simply through leveling. Not even close. So the dedication you're looking for must still be there. Heck, people probably would not even know they had gained the faction title if all they wished to do was level up. So make any recipe quest rewards require one reach the second level of faction (or even third if you think it would be too easy for all those people that accidently got to the first level through leveling) with the Society. After all, they are only for "dedicated" tradeskillers, so this should not be a problem anyway. [/p]

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Actually, I don't think Deson is the one that needs to save face around here, far from it. His posts make sense, and frankly his reponse 'I've got nothing for you' is rather diplomatic, I know I personally wouldn't be able to be that diplomatic. Now Deson doesn't need me for his defense or anything he can certainly speak for himself, but the thread is getting ugly by your constant attacks. Please just stop Calris, you will do yourself a favor, honestly.

I want to ask people in this thread a question and I'm not sure it is easy to answer. But what kind of levelling speed is fair (in general terms) per tier? I am talking pure tradeskilling time here, and I don't include harvesting times. I see the harvesting issues as another issue and hope you will accept that I just ask about the pure tradeskilling time. I am interested in yours views on these three hypothetical questions: 1. Should the levelling speed in general be faster in the start of the career and slower in the end, like the adventurer and tradeskilling until GU37? 2. Should the speed be equally fast through all tiers? So a level will take, e.g., 1 hour to complete regardless of tier. 3. Is 25 minutes for a level in tier 7 too fast? You see, I actually like the new writ xp system. I don't mind some professions getting help with the speed. But and of course there is a but, I simply saw that certain professions and certain tiers went by mind boggling fas (aka 25 minutes for a level). But to me it seems as if this discussion is going black or white, the writ system is either good or bad. What about in between? I think the point I am trying to make is that I think the system is good, but perhaps needs some tweaking. Am I really alone in thinking this? Thanks in advance Edit: hopefully some clarification

He contradicted himself, I called him on it, he started sidestepping with snide patronization.

I think it's fair where it is for most professions. Take out the pristine bonuses to make the leveling speed even across the board (Lower the Scholor fail rates to compensate for losing all their pristine bonuses), and we'll be gravy as far as level speed is concerned, IMO. I had other suggestions up in the thread for making tradeskilling more interesting in general, too, but those aren't relevant to leveling speed.

Edited for clarity

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Actually, any patronizing was brought upon yourself. If you want to be treated with respect, treat others with respect. Calling someone a liar is not respectful. Next time try something like "It seems you contradict yourself, can you please explain this?" and you may get a better result.

dartie wrote:

The problem with that is that being harder to level probably should make them more valuable, but without marketability, they aren't. My hardest crafter to level in terms of sheer tedium and expenditure has been my weaponsmith, and armorsmith would probably be right up there since they have similar resource consumption and a somewhat more equal marketability when compared to other tradeskilling classes. My carpenter can have me wishing to drill nails through my eyes with the tedium of leveling her, but the bright side is that I know she's going to have a generally good marketability, and that I will want the things she can provide. My woodworker evokes similar feelings, but she provides me with arrows and any totems I could require. I craft mostly for myself and for my guildmates, not really to play the broker game. My weaponsmith offers me virtually nothing, and that's not really the fact that I'm a ranger and rely much more on my bow provided by my woodworker, but that I can easily find something 10 or 20 times better than anything my weaponsmith can craft, even Mastercrafted, by doing an easy quest, getting a drop from a solo mob, or poking around the broker for a cheaper Legendary or Fabled dropped weapon. I generally get my armor from my guild's armorsmith, although in lower tiers, the armor I received from drops and questing was vastly superior to anything he could craft. So there's such a clamor for balance because the imbalance is so pronounced. All of my scholar classes provide me with something. My sage provides my alts with spells, the jeweler the runes essential to my main's success and the alchemist keeps me from having to pay out the nose for poisons to keep up with my DPS on my main. Prior to the armor change, my tailor gave me my leather armor, which I preferred to chain in a primarily soloing playstyle, and she provides me with bags, hex dolls and cloaks with handy effects on them. Those four are actually the ones I end up leveling the fastest. The sage, jeweler and alchemist all have a similar number of recipes for first time pristine bonus and are characters I haven't done too many writs with. My tailor has a wide variety of recipes, although the high resource consumption is a drawback there, and she can generally get 30% to half her level in first time pristine bonuses in her current tier. I turn to writs once pristines are done, to prevent having tons of things to either vendor sell or broker dump, plus help my guild in the process. After those 4, the tedium rises exponentially, although as I said, there is some positive with the carpenter and the woodworker, and even the provisioner who provides food and drink for all my characters. My weaponsmith lies at the bottom of the barrel, and is only leveled out of sheer pigheadedness on my part to have the 8 crafters I've worked up together reach the cap together. She's both the hardest to level, and the one with the least to offer me. In response to your earlier post, Deson, I don't think the city factions are the way to go in terms of putting value back into being a dedicated crafter either. I have seen ideas posted here about having "masters" who will teach you special recipes once you prove yourself to them by putting in faction work as a tradeskiller. I think something like that is a great idea, and they could even introduce the idea of this "master" eventually being able to teach the crafter how to fashion something tailored to one's needs, ie a basic sword with str, agi, int stats could be lessened on str and agi to buff up int. SWG had something very similar with the experimentation system in crafting. Plus it would give crafters a boost because they could provide something no drop could: customization. This would make them competitive (not superior, not inferior, just competitive) with the current vastly superior drops or quest rewards. I just think we need to get away from the idea that level should be the only thing to set dedicated crafters apart from those who are just doing it on a more part-time basis, especially since now crafting level is a large factor in desireable adventuring quests. But the first step to establishing something like that is to bring the leveling imbalance under control and even things out among the classes in terms of leveling. Which they have done, opening the door to other ideas of differentiation for the near or far future.

I think so, yes. Like adventuring, tradeskilling should start out easy and fast, and slowly grow more demanding. The demand here is time and resources. The rate of increase should be low. A doubling between tiers would be far too much. Perhaps a factor somewhere between 1.2 and 1.5 between tiers. This is what we see in both normal recipies and in discoveries. The percentage-wise gain from an even level recipy declines slowly over the tiers, requireing you to do more recipies per level. I actually thought the leveling speed at the end was pretty acceptable for an armorer (five or six normal discoveries per level, and I did rares too), and a bit on the slow side for a carpenter (two discoveries per level). Still, three writs a day would keep the vitality down and progress going steadily up. Writs now do not follow this pattern. The percentage of a level gained from writs actually increase as writ level goes up. At the final tiers, the compound growth really starts to show, with 10+ % of a level gained from a single writ. I think it should be put in line with other xp gains, having a declining, or at least constant, percentage gain as writs rise in level. If for nothing else, then to be consistent. And to make room for the next tier when Kunark is discovered ... if it has to increase again, it'll be MADNESS!

So, no. Equally fast, in time, could perhaps be something you try to strive for by improving your skill, getting better equipment, using better arts, stripping naked, or whatever else you can think of. It will still need more recipies completed. Liljna wrote:

Yes, absolutely. Not that I didn't like "getting there" ... but it kindof took the feeling of achievement out of leveling. I'd say it should take at least an hour of concentrated work (would have been ~90 minutes before GU37, and then I'd probably have taken breaks too, instead of doing three levels in a row). Some classes will of course be slower than carpenters, but that's ok . /RS

I'm responding to multiple posts here so I'm paring them down for size.

I've never been a fan of levels being the focus of dedicated crafting, it's just that right now it's all we have. While I didn't think xp was that bad for any class, I've also supported other more long term fixes for the issues,such as market viability(with potential class revamps/removals) and even the current writ xp,just not this much xp and not attached to faction giving writs. My problems continue to be that it's simply too much xp to be granted at the moment in an otherwise flat environment, I consider it a clever dodge of the issues that created the so-called imbalance and that writs give faction. In a less flat landscape, I'd be indifferent even if they went so far as insta 70. That's the one paragraph version of what I've been trying to convey since first post on this.And yeah, I still say tailors are overpowered. I like the idea of master trainers-even suggested it in various ways myself. Still, I was also looking for city/alliance based special gear like Lucanic armor or Qeynos guard plate. I was also looking at something suggested before of putting ancient teachings scrolls/Advanced recipes behind it. Not so much to break the recipe dependence on adventurer in those areas(don't really mind it much for them) but because there are gaps that show up over time and as the playerbase spreads itself over levels. Having an alternative but typically more expensive/time consuming method of acquisition that's guaranteed is just a little safety net to me for new crafters. Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote:

You could very well be right. As I've said since I started, I just don't know how it will work out and am willing to wait and see- I just can't see any good coming of it myself.

Personally level means nothing to me if there are other methods of standing out. Under the circumstances, I'd go for number one with a level off probably around what was t5 xp into number 2. Number 3? Since raws can be bought cheap for most classes, I'd say about 2 hours per level with no vitality with all those things factored in. I simply can't ignore harvest time/investment because it's so integral to the measurement by design. Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:

No, it doesn't and no, I didn't. As I stated earlier, there was a context from previous posts and even one from actually knowing tradeskill leveling itself.I should have known though that when posting on the internet, people like to see what they want. Before being called a liar, I would have been happy to detail every aspect of what I was saying- as I have for anyone who's asked me. But since I'm stupid, a liar, and now a snide patronizer with a condescending attitude, I'll say you're absolutely right-and I got nothing for you.

Ilmaaaaah@Lucan DLere wrote:

Neither is fudging figures to bolster your side of an argument. I still don't buy the leveling speed he claims. This morning, it took me 45 minutes to get from halfway through 37 to 1/3 through 38. This was with vitality, writ xp, pristine bonuses from 38, and a vet reward 55% xp potion. To say that he averaged 2 levels per hour for for months straight to hit the cap at only 2 hours of -actual- TSing per week is completely unbelievable given my own experiences. I would have been more inclined to believe the 6 hours a week for 4 months to reach the cap story if the 6 hours had been all TSing. But only 2 of it TSing and 4 harvesting? I'm sorry, that's just plain insulting to my intelligence to think I'll buy such a ridiculous figure.

All I see here is a weak cop-out. I notice that while others have stepped up to tell me I was rude to you, nobody seems to be able to tell me where I supposedly misunderstood you... While it's true that it's "guilty until proven innocent" in the US, I can assure you that if your only defense after the prosecution presents his evidence in a court is "I got nothing for you", you will find yourself behind bars.

Calris@Antonia Bayle wrote:

In your post above, if you have all that going and took 45 mins to get that far, you probably are doing something inefficiently. in the mid 60's with all that going I still would have gotten comparably farther. You presented no evidence. All you've done is accuse me of lying from how you interpreted what I posted. Still, as I said, since I'm all those things to you, I got nothing for you. Do yourself a favor and just drop it.

Let's simmer down a bit please. You are welcome to disagree with each other, but don't let your disagreement turn to personal attacks, insults, or namecalling. Back on topic please!

[p]FYI EQ2 Players does split total play time between tradeskill and adventure. If you wish to prove any claims of leveling speed, tell us your character's name and server. 8)[/p][p]Edit: You can even use the in-game browser to take a screen shot when you hit tradeskill level 70. Just make sure you show chat window, browser, time clock (mouse over), and tradeskill level bar. [/p]

I thought about that, even looked at it when I was reviewing my math which is why is said there was a little room for impreciseness. Problem is where it shows levels/day it doesn't include a time. While an informed reader can infer from the dates it was vitality( and then compare the amount of time it took me to grind up to 50k status from when writs went in) the lack of a time stamp and of course, the lack of a harvesting time( rendered useless by how I harvested anyway) adds no value to my claim. Without actual server logs across my chars, you'd have to take my account at its word compared with what you know of trades. It makes proving anything a waste of time to anyone so inclined to disbelieve me in the first place.

[p]Was not even talking about the level date info. I am talking about the info on the first page of the character sheet next to the bio.[/p][p]Time Played:[/p][p]Adventure Time Played:[/p][p]Tradeskilling Time Played:[/p][p]Total:[/p][p]Last Time Played:[/p]

Yeah, I figured you were talking about that too. I touched on it but didn't elaborate;it's why I said the bolded. That doesn't help much either because my crafters aren't idle. Right now they have about 50-65hours (2 days 19 hours was the highest I remember) depending on the char. While that is tight enough to help, again, if someone isn't inclined to believe me, it's too much room to even bother.

Raphaela made level 41 provisioner, transmuting skill level 226, and resp to a scholar level 14 in 21 hours 4 mins. Although, I do go by the Ronald Reagan rule/quote "Trust, but verify". Would you give out one of your character's name and the server please?