Juggernaut Serious Discussion: Should it be improved? Should it be useable while Tanking and DPSing?

Cos we got bent over, grabbed out ankles and got shafted on out T7 ancient.
When I tell people in my guild what the CA actually does it gets treated with derision. It's almost embarresing having to make excuses for how bad this CA is.

I said pretty much all I had to say in other threads. Pretty much everything else I would say has already been posted here, so there is no real need for me to repeat it. I have personaly removed Juggernaut from my hotbar since everytime I have tried to use it effectivly I have died.
The only way to get any effective boost from using Juggernaut is by getting 100% haste (usually by using Open Wounds which also increases our DPS). However, as has been stated too many times already Juggernaut and Open Wounds (or anything that will boost your haste to 100% which isn't hard to do at all) means you WILL pull agro which means you WILL die. The defensive penalties on Juggernaut = instant death on agro.
My repair bills on raids is already high enough. I don't need to purposly add to the cost by using Juggernaut, hence the removal of it from my hotbar.
Just for fun though, try this combination one time. Get a Dirge in your group and get Juggernaut ready to be used (in other words get in a berserk state) pop Open Wounds + Juggernaut and tell the dirge to pop blades and watch the damage fly for the 5 seconds that you are alive. No need to worry about wiping the group or the raid since you will die so fast that the mob/s will agro right back onto the tank and the dirge can combat res you. Just make sure your armor is above 10% when you do this or you will get up naked, lol:smileyvery-happy:

Level 70 Zerker still haven't scribed this spell after LU21 and don't want to. It's not worth the space in my knowledge book.

It is still crap.

i ran around killing lvl 60's for about 20mins using only jugg...
saw like a crit or 2 every other jugg casted.
100% jeez+100% combat dmg please.
stupid mobs nearly killed me all the time, with me chain stunning, stun shield, sceptre self heal...

I've been trying out jugg in sevral scenarios now and it is completely unimpressive. The crits suck, the penalties suck, and it is just generally, all around a big hunk of crap. I have tried in everyway to post kindly, constructive, worthwhile posts filled with ideas, compromises, and general goodwill towards the devs on this one.... but I'm just going to be honest: Whoever thought of this crap has never played the game and has zero clue as to how to balance out penalties with benefits. I still say, if Juggernaut is fine and balanced, then reverse the effects.

It's crap like this that keeps making me spend more time enjoying RL events and less time online.

I am still depressed over the suckiness of the Juggernaut spell and I really wish they would change it for the betterment of our class as a whole.

I fully agree that the dmg doesn't seem that big a deal compared to it's stiff penalties which limit it's usability.

I upgraded this spell to master to see if that would make a big difference.
I can honestly say, the decrease in mit etc isn't quite so bad, its at least not insta-death that it was previously. as long as i use havoc before using juggernaut its not horrible.
now saying that, the damage that the thing does, with my parses, i see very little additional damage.
i'd love to see a comparison of every other classes, class defining ancient teaching level 65 spell, compared to ours.

-Erick

Well, as most of you I didn't manage to find a usefull way to use Juggernaut.
So either all together we didn't understand the ratio behind this combat art or it doesn't address a real T7 zerk issue.
At the moment, dps doesn't seem to be an issue - we are not dpsing as a monk - but open wounds and rampage are providing already enough in this area (not to mention the Agility AA).

Since this is supposed to be THE rare T7 combat art, shouldn't it address one real issue most of us face ?

Personaly, and I do not force anyone to share my point of view, I struggle more to keep aggro than dpsing.
You could argue that doing more dps should help me to hold aggro more easily, but let's be honest, we can't compete against a wizard with a 3 x 11K dmg, or even against an Ice Comet.

Therefore, I would be much more satisfied to get a rare combat art that would increase my rank in hate table, wich we can do only once every 10 mins at the moment. Something like:
"Exposed Fury : For 30 secs, every 2 seconds your fury makes you bleed for 350 dmg, but generates 350 hate points and you gain 1 rank in the hate table"

That would bloodily satisfies my zerk style :smileyhappy:

LOL 'Oozing Zerk of Infuriated Pissedoffedness'

At this point, I wouldnt' care if it was damage, hate, defense, buffage, or utility, but I would like to see this art change. BTW, you do realize that 350 every 2 seconds for 30 seconds is 5250 HP right?

That's even 5600 with the initial 350 at the begining of the combat art :smileyvery-happy:
Ok, that's tough, may be too much and I admit it. But using such a skill would be worth it only in a group where you compete for aggro against DPS. And I expect at least one healer (not a shaggy paly) in such a group. My point was just to say that we are already doing quite some nice dps, but we are lacking aggro against T7 casters/scout spells. Specially since only the AE taunt got updated in T7.
Am I the only one to feel this way ?
In this case I apologise for such a proposition :smileymad:
* I have the weird feeling that a zerk isn't supposed to apologize, and I should trample any fool who dares to contradict me * :smileywink:

* I have the weird feeling that a zerk isn't supposed to apologize, and I should trample any fool who dares to contradict me *
You obviusly havent' been readig the zerker boards enough. Zerkers are suppose to freak out and start tearing down anything within arms reach! What is this 'apologizing' you speak of.. never heard of it.
Aggro wise, i think we are doing fine. I've never had any aggro issues. If you are playing with a high DPS group it helps to pull out the big 2h and fight in off or neutral stance, but other than that I keep aggro pretty easily... even against warlocks. The only other tank class that can keep aggro across a group as well as zerkers is a pally... and even then the pally needs an AoE class in their group to do it since they have to use amends.
Don't get me wrong... I'll ALWAYS take more taunts.

Either way, I think you brought up a good point. It would be nice to see an ability that actually helped us in some way. Juggernaut was a big F/U slap in the face from SOE. The bonus that it gives is completely inadequate for the the penalties incurred.

ya, the bonus this gives is crap. We get a slightly higher CHANCE to crit. Big deal. Most times a crit isn't any more damage than normal. Meanwhile, there's many classes that can spend a few AP's and get a much higher percent to crit, that's always on, with no penalty. I know we have a place in our tree to do this too, but not nearly the % chance as many of these other classes get.
It's a big joke, really. Only time I ever use it, is when I have 2+ healers in a group, and fighting trash mobs...not because of the small increase in crit chances, and not because the crits are anything special when they do happen, but because everyone likes the bull horns (and after I explain to them what it does, it reminds them how good they got it with their level 65 special ability).

We are offensive tanks(offensive in a good way :smileywink: ) and we need this ability to assist us in that role. The only time I use juggernaut is to run around QH with horns. :smileyvery-happy:
Message Edited by Kosmetas on 04-03-200601:40 PM

I was playing with Juggernaut last night in PoA. I was off-tanking and thought I'd start farting around since no one was in real danger. I'd cast Open wounds and Rampage on groups of 3 mobs. ..... out of the 24 seconds (at +100% haste and +70% DPS) I would see between 0 and 4 critical hits for around 600. My normal hits are about 470. This needs a boost.

I group with my boy Delicious who's a SK (Ok his names not Delicious but i call him that ... we have a wierd ****-erotic thing going on in my guild ... but i swear i didn't start it ... ok i did, but still its wierd anyway) and he has a friggen AA Thing which allows him to get this ... get 100% crit on ALL his Spells. Not a "Crit Chance" like we have, 100% crit...so that means EVERY spell is a Crit. Hmmmn i'd rather have that 100% chance with NO penalty than this crappy 30% chance or whatever with the penalty.
I've never had this spell do anything to help me ... i have tried it a few times in 'testing situations' and if i use it with open wounds i tend to draw agro in OT Situations which tends to get me killed, and it still doesnt give me much better DPS. If i use it with Rampage same thing. If i use it without either of the two i dont draw agro too much but i also dont do anything really at all different DPS wise. This spell is without a doubt the least useable thing I have, even less frequently gone to than our crappy kick.
I don't care what we get as long as its useable. Give me a Defensive buff and im happy if it helps when im tanking (because i'd know when to use it). Give me an offensive buff or attack and im happy and i know when to use it ... This right now is nothing but a wasted space on one of my four hotbars.

Jokernaut
This is the worst skill we - or any class to my knowledge - have been cursed with. Improve it? Nah - just kill it, drive a stake thru its heart, remove it from my spell book and be done with it. This is a worthless - but COMPLETELY WORTHLESS skill. It is worse than worthless. If you EVER use it in a group - you will doom yourself to a near instantaneous death and most likely wipe the whole party. If you ever use it solo - you will just die. I took it off my hotbar because i dont want to hit it by accident. If I could i would delete it from my spell book.
I have seen one zerker use this skill - I was grouped with another zerker and i was MT. I could tell when she hit it - the mobs I was not targeting shifted aggro to her and dropped her like a 10$ prom date. The healers burned tons of power trying to keep her alive but to no avail. Thus depleted - one of the group dead, healers low on power we faced certain doom only to be saved by our quick thinking scout who evaced us to safety. So the moral is - if you ever get tempted to use our abso-fuggen-lutely worse than worthless "jokernaut" skill, make sure you either tell the healers to just let you die and not bother wasting power on you, or make sure your scout has evac up.
My advice - remove from hotbar and forget.

I dont understand why everyone is fussing. Dont use it when ur tanking... Dont use it when an AE goes off.... Simple is that.

When i use it, i can get 1200 dps... Well.. with luck of a bunch of high crits. I'd say that is pretty good for a tank (not including monks!)
It's every 3 minutes.

And when are you NOT beserk? Do you not use your buffs?? I have mine always on (as you should...) and I turn on auto attack ffs and I go beserk auto maticly. I am ALWAYS beserk.... Using this skill every 3minutes is awsome.

Here are the new fighter CA's (Adept III quality):
Castigate (Paladin)
- Recast: 3 minutes. Dispels 101 levels of hostile crushing, slashing, divine,
piercing, cold, disease, magic, heat, poison, and mental effects on caster.
For each one removed, all enemies surrounding the Paladin are struck by a
divine bolt. (no info in description describing how much damage this is)
Dragonbreath (Monk)

- Duration: 8 seconds, Recast: 1 minute, 30 seconds. Inflicts 88-108 heat
damage on targets in area of effect instantly and every second. Reduces
casting timers of targets in area of effect by 42%.
Juggernaut (Berzerker)
- Duration: 24 seconds, Recast: 3 minutes. Decreases Defense and Parry by 39.
Decreases Mitigatoin of caster vs crushing, slashing, piercing, and magical
damage by 1300. All combat arts have their base damage increased. Increases
melee crit chance of caster by 24%. This ability can only be used while berzerk!
Knockout Combination (Bruiser)
- Duration: 20 seconds, Recast: 3 minutes. When target uses a combat art this
spell will cast Shove on target of combat art, which inflicts 168-505 melee
damage on target and stuns the target (if not epic) for 1.0 seconds.
Obliterate (Guardian)
- Duration: 10 seconds, Recast: 1 minute. Inflicts 758-1264 melee damage on
target. Decreases defense, parry, and deflection of target by 55.
Pestilence (Shadowknight)
- Recast: 1 minute. Applies Pestilence Damage. Lasts for 16 seconds. It inflicts
104-127 disease damage on target instantly and every 2 seconds. When that
target dies, if pestilence was still active, it spreads to 2 nearby enemies.
Pestilence continues as long as there are nearby enemies and they are killed
before its duration expires.
I'll allow the respective classes to debate the usefulness of their new CA's. The thing that stands out to me is that Juggernaut is obviously the only new fighter CA that has any sort of penalty involved. Interpret that how you will.