Juggernaut Serious Discussion: Should it be improved? Should it be useable while Tanking and DPSing?

Right now everybody knows that juggernaut is not useable while tanking any serious content. It's also not believe to do enough damage compared to other classes Tier7 Marquee ability. How do other's feel?

I personally like the spell, but I'm more of a DPS berserker when it comes to raids (meaning I don't get the chance to often to be the main-tank). But I do feel that at adept3, a 26% melee crit chance for 24 seconds every 3 minutes is rather low. I would prefer either it's duration be extended or it's reuse lowered, or finally, the crit chance upped to something more along the lines of 39% in adept3, 45% master1.

P.S. This thread needs to stay away from the tank vs dps argument that some berserkers feel strongly about. I understand this is very hard to do, but I do admit that in it's current form this skill is useless to any tanking berserkers that aren't taking on trivial content.

Having made adept3 Of juggernaut i used it extensively over the weekend. I HAD to find a group in which i do not main tank(which during the last year in a group i was doing 99.9%). I could only use juggernaut "sometimes", as i was in the position to only do dps and off tank, berserk, proc'd sometimes during the middle of the fight towards the end, well whichever, it didn't proc when i wanted it to proc(which is a requirement of jugg)[not to mention group fights rarely last 20seconds or more on yellow ^^^]
Anyway when i did have berserk up i could only cast EITHER open wounds or Rampage not both, b/c if i did manage to have a lucky crit, i'd pull aggro from a lvl 70 amends pally. Oh btw if i pulled aggro i died immensely fast, yes yes the "you dropped faster than a caster joke" was passed around until everyone thought it was old... basically if they saw that i had the BIG viking helmet up, and i got aggro, it'd be best to just res me 5seconds later.
So is this spell remotely useful in Group? no.
The ultra rare time, i as a tank, do not tank, is rare enough for me. Not to mention I NEED berserk to be up on a 10% chance to proc berserk, Not to mention that the crit chance is so minimal i barely critted all weekend. Along with the fact that it's on a 3minute reuse... trying to juggle this + open wounds + rampage was getting annoying quite quick.
My GF is a coercer, yes a robe wearing caster, we've played since release she's 65, She's one of the classes that would notice a beat down from a mob, from a broken or failed mez. She said i dropped faster than anything she's ever seen (if i have viking hat up, which means i'm using juggernaut).
This spell needs a revamp,
-You cannot use this spell during a key class ability, which is to tank.
-You cannot produce the secondary requirement of this spell when you want to cast it(berserk). -You cannot even see any remote difference with this spell on or not, DPS wise.
-The recast timer is too long for such a drabby spell.
I would like to see either of any of the following changes
a. Take away the detriment to all mitigation completely,take away the detriment to defense/parry completely
b. increase chance to crit 100%, increase CA base damage to 100%
In conclusion.
if i am ever not tanking in exp group(very unlikely) and if i am ever not raid main tanking (33% chance to raid tank depending on encounter and tanks online, and dps classes around to buff berserker many factors) I use this spell...
NOT for dps
NOT for crits
...
I use it b/c everyone in my group gets a big kick out of see a big viking helmet over my head.(and if i'm on a horse, the viking graphic seems to come out of my chest now instead)

Should it be improved? Yes. I really don't care how it is improved, but it definelty needs it. When I use it, I don't see any more crits than if I did not use it! And when I do crit, it isn't any more damage than what I'd normally do without critting, but maybe that's a different discussion. I'd be happier if the crit chance was higher, the damage done from crits was raised, or most importantly to me - less penalties. Why are we the only ones with a trade off on our level 65 ability, and why would the trade off be much less defense, when we are a tanking class, and why are we the only ones that can use our level 65 ability when we are "berserk"? What's our chance to be berserk? ~20%? We have a group berserk and a self berserk at 10% each, So a rough estimate says that ~20% of the time, we will be able to use the ability, and for a trade off. Every other class can use theirs 100% of the time (as long as it's up of course), and with NO TRADE OFF. As far as I know, everyone has a place in their AP tree to up their crit chance, and by a higher % than what this spell offers. Every other class gets something cool, that others can not get. In other words, if someone from any class puts AP into crits, then they get something much better than the berserkers level 65 special ability. They get a higher % chance to crit, and it is being used 100% of the time (rather than our ~20%), and with NO PENALTIES. Might as well give them the bulls horns over their head too. Better yet, make the bulls horns bigger, since their ability is better.
Does it kill me every time I use it? No. Because I use it defensive stance, atleast 2 healers in group, and all three 30 second defensive buffs up (which pretty much defeats the purpose).
So in summary, our ability compared to every other classes ability:
Ours Everyone Else
can be used about 20% of time (need berserk) (if up) can be used 100% of time (if up)
and if we can afford to lose all the defense, so I'd guess <10% still 100% of the time, not situational
wehave to worry about this getting us killed no way will theirs ever get them killed
supposedly a higher CHANCE to crit No "chances".
3 minute timer Not sure.
3 defensive penalties, and to a tank class (always needs def.) No penalty, let alone 3 of them.
Message Edited by FightGame on 03-20-200605:14 PM
Message Edited by FightGame on 03-20-200605:22 PM

Basically anyone who has used this spell at all will realise its totally pointless. On the rare occasions that you actually as a tank ever get the chance to use it, it does next to nothing. Totally, totally pointless waste of a hotbar spot. Anyone who says it isn't is really grasping at straws and I challenge them to post parses of any meaningful fights that shows Juggernaut doing anything at all. Cos the parses I have show it's pointless. Did I mention that this CA is pointless?

I don't even have to use this spell to know it's pointless. That's why at level 70 I still haven't even scribed it and I really have no desire to even bother trying it out. I can tell just by looking at it that it totally sucks and it's the worse thing that SOE has ever done to this class.

By the way, isn't it only a 5% chance to proc berserk when you're not taking any damage? I will have to check again, but I'm pretty sure it's only 5%, not 10%, regardless of the quality of the buff you have, because upgrading it only increases the chance to go berserk from taking damage, or so I thought.

I like the ability also because it gives us some varability within our class being able to lean one way or another, but i will agree that a 26% chance to crit for the sacrafice we take is low.
Personally, i would rather it be a 26% chance to proc a direct damage effect for 24 seconds reusable every 3 mins which consumes HP like it does now over the 24 second period with out the negative side effects.

I understand the original idea behind this spell. Something that falls in line with the "traditional" idea people have of zerks (ie. not the plate wearing tank of soe), and something to please the part of the zerk population that doesn't main tank.

Nobody can come up with numbers about that, but I seriously doubt that non tanking zerks are anywhere close the majority, or even a significant part of the zerk player base. I'm a bit surprised to see Sony throw them a bone, it didn't seem to be their poilitic regarding small populations with problems (coercers, carpenters ...).

In a 6 people group with 2 heals, when I click on Juggernaut, my mitigation goes back into the 3k range, and my avoidance shows 0%.
No need to say I can't be tanking anything else than a green solo mob at that moment. Or I'm dead, and maybe my group with me. This CA can't be used while tanking. Period. Thing is, I don't remember the last time I was in a group as a dps, and not the tank. And I'm not talking about raids, where I'm one of the 2 MT of my guild, and I won't have my cursor come even close to the spell icon.

On the other hand, the damage bonus I get from it is, well, non existant at times (in terms of crits). That's right, sometimes I won't crit once during the 24 seconds. The 20% bonus on combat arts damage is ok, but doesn't come close to making this spell useful.

Is this some kind of payback for having 3 very good ancient spells in T6 ? I don't know, but what I know is that I'd very much like SoE to look again at this combat art and make it something I would use, because in it's present form I will never use it.

"Is this some kind of payback for having 3 very good ancient spells in T6 ?"

I was thinking the same thing. We got really hooked up with our DoF Ancients so they must have decided to give us a really useless one in KoS to keep us "balanced". The spell basically cancels itself out so it's like we don't even get one. Can't use it while tanking and can't use it while DPS'ing either, for fear of AOEs and getting aggro and getting one-shotted. Can't use it for anything that really matters. If you bother to scribe it you can use it to help clear green/gray trash mobs a tiny bit faster but that's about it.
Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-21-200612:41 PM

Whether you like it or not isn't what is being asked here. We undestand that you will like it whether it's useful or not. Post some numbers to back up the reason for the CA in the first place. It gives us no variablity because it doesn't actually do anything worth while. If you want variablity tank 3 up white con mobs naked for 24 seconds, it amounts to about the same thing.

I'd have to say this skill needs a boost. This skill is great example of 'no reward for great risk'.

Berserkers by definition, and description are fighters. Meaning we're expected in most situations to tank. Now, we also couple as reasonable dps when we're not expected to tank. A tanks ability to complete devastate our own defensive abilities should equate to more then a 5-10% increase in dps. Which i'd say this skill currently adds, and that 5-10% being relatively inconsistent.

Juggernaut is one of very few skills that seem to want to "balance". The majority of skills simply provide added bonuses, damage, abilities, etc. This skill wants to "balance" our character by removing the majority of our tanking ability, but increases our dps. Its already been said how little dps this skill currently adds, so its not nessecary to repeat it.

It would be very nice, if this skill could be re-evaluated and re-balanced into a more usable form. This spell currently is very restrictive to the situations you can use it. Please re-vamp this skill into something that we can use while tanking, dpsing, and solo'ing. Currently it can only be used when dpsing, and if it isn't used there is very little difference.

Sil, would it be possible to shorten the title. Replys are getting "Subject can not exceed 100 characters"

For simplicity sake.

The group buff is 5% while the self buff is 10%.

They changed the group buff to be half the chance of the self buff a few LU's ago.

Oh I see, thanks for the info.

I've been off the boards for a couple of weeks, but I see the argument against Juggernaut is still going strong. I have run some parses while using Juggernaut, but I am out of town on business for the next month and won't have a chance to post them. However, I can say that i have used Juggernaut in a variety of situations now and it definitely needs some tweaking. It's obvious that Juggernaut was meant to help rais our DPS in a raid situation, and it does accomplish this. However, to generate any kind of significant boost from Juggernaut, Open wounds needs to be on. Of course, using Open Wounds and Juggernaut together WILL turn most mobs ... and we don't have anyway to lower our aggro, using Juggernaut with open wounds usually measn an instant death. Against single mobs, raid or otherwise, I see no significant increase in damage (i.e. 1-2% DPS).
Outside of raid situations, Juggernaut can be used against green mobs, but anything higher than green is going to kill... or come very close to killing you. I have lost encounters to 3 blooms in TT while using Open Wounds (M1), Rampage (M1), and Juggernaut (A1) with my Unbridled Fury (m1) and Chaos (M1) on. My gear is all legendary or better. I can understand that this art should not enable us to solo ^^^ yellows, but currently, it gives us no edge in a fight. It basically makes an encounter that we could easily defeat without the skill mor challenging. That doesn't make any sense to me.
So far, I have been unimpressed with the damage increase of Juggernaut, and horrified at the penalties. This spell is completely unbalanced in its current state and should be re-evaluated by the devs.

The saddest thing about Juggernaut for me is that if I had the choice I would use it on a mob before I would use it on myself. I would be willing to give them the extra crit chances just to debuff their mitigation and defense so much and drain their health too. Which is really sad.

On a brighter note I am happy that I looted the master1 of Destruction the other night from a trash mob in PoA. =D

It's sad though that I would not be so thrilled to loot the master1 of Juggernaut. If I saw it drop I would tell everyone in the group that it was FFA and if I still won it I would try to sell it and see if I could get some sucker to shell out some plat for it.
Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-23-200611:08 AM

With the LU21 changes to juggernaut, has anybody found this art to be better? Haven't heard any recent posts and have been on vacation myself.

I still haven't scribed it and I'm still not interested in doing so.

Still seems to do sod all on the very odd occcasion I haven't been tanking just to try it out it's done next to nothing.

Just get rid of the mitigation penalty and it will be fine, it seems to be pretty useless otherwise, having an ability you can't use if you are tanking :smileyindifferent:

The spell still sucks after lu21. If it has -1300 mitigation and -39 def/parry or more like before makes no difference. Nothing has changed, the spell is suicide solo and dangerous and stupid to be used while tanking. The benefits still don't justify the penalties.
It's on a 3 minute timer and only lasts only 24 seconds. Like said before, the spell could have no penalties at all and still wouldn't be overpowered. They could change this spell completely, I don't care what they do as lang as the result is a spell which helps me when playing solo or tanking.
Yesterday our sk explained his new spell, it's extremely cool. It's a dot and if the target dies while the dot is on it the dot will spread to 2 new targets and if these targets die while the dot is still on them the dot will spread further and so on. It can continue forever. Oh, and it doesn't cripple the defense and costs no hp to cast.
Why do other fighter class get such cool spells and we get juggernaut?