Juggernaut needs fixed and changed.

Sorry yes I am refering to the crusader skill since it seems like that is what Talathion wants. He wants to run around and take no damage ( for the most part ) other than what this spell would inflict and be able to put out loads of DPS and does not think that its OP in the least bit.

Kimber@Nagafen wrote:

No, My version of the spell would inflict about 1000 Damage/and Drain 300 Mana Every 3 Seconds. (thats alot of mana especially after you use adrenaline).
But be a Defensive/Offensive buff.
But Carry on.

1K damage every 3 sec and 300 Mana every 3 sec while the mana would be difficult to put back up to full I am sure it could be done but 1 k every 3 sec when you are not taking any other damage is easy even for a heroic ( non raid ) healer to keep up with at end game.

Not OP at all

But carry on.........

Kimber@Nagafen wrote:

But Also, Adrenaline pretty much does 40% to your mana.

Its still OP no matter how you look at it.

You want basicly around a 20% damage reduce added to Juggy or ( change it to that either way ) That the trade off is it pulls health and power from you a X% per tick for health and 300 power per tick every 3 sec. Untill cancled or you run out of health or power.

Keeping the number simple here lets say you have 20,000 health and 10,000 power ( yes I know these are not the right numbers but going for simplicity here )

1% ( this is the % that you asked for at first ) of 20k health is 200 even if you take the flat rate of 200 untill you run out of health the it would take 5 Min to run out of health. Even if you go with 1k per tick its still 1 min which any decent healer at 90 can cover 1k every 3 sec esp if you are taking 1K less damage every sec.

At 10K power with each tick taking 300 power it would take 1 Min 35 ish sec ( it works out to be 1.6 min )

Now this effect would stay on till cancled or you run out of power well I can take a lv 39 Warden and cover the 200 health every 3 sec easy would be too easy for an end game healer even one that had been PL'd and no gear. The power would be easy to cover also with a Dirge or Troub not even taking in to consideration Illy or Coer which would cover it so much better.

Ok now lets say you are actually fighting in a heroic zone every one has about the same gear its decent its at lv you have the correct class's how much harder do you think it would be for them to cover the cost of that lil ablilty that is reducing the damage you take by 1K ever sec ( low balling it there ) by covering 200 health and 300 power every 3 sec. If you have a good group it would be so easy. Raids hell the zerk could just about go AFK if the DPS were to watch thier hate all. The healer would have it easier power regen would be working a lil harder ( maybe ). What you want is just way to OP and before you say well Adren takes 40% OK fine I will figure that out also.

Hmm hit Juggy 20% damage reduce starts health and power tick lasts untill cancled
Hit Adren for anouther 50% damage reduce for 30 sec drops power by 40%

Health ticks will still take forever to run out even easier to keep up with now as you are taking 70% less damage for 30 sec ( hell they might be able to go grab a soda out the fridge if its not to far away an you would not even notice they were gone )

Power ticks hmm takes it down to 6k right off the top giving you still anouther 1 min before you run out. Still way easy for a decent power regen to fill you back up and not miss a beat.

Now yes I realize that during this time you would be fighting and clicking things that would consume power but tbh how often do you run out of power right now when you pop Adren the only time I run out is when I am solo and have hit it more than 1 time or if I am in a group the Bard/Chanter dies or we just dont have one and I pulled the whole room and it took that long to kill. If you are in a raid and the MT runs out of health or power unless the OT is just as good or damn close its over anyway and well if you are counting on this change to enable you to tank things that you could not before maybe you should reroll.

I realize that the numbers for Adren may not be correct as I am at work and not able to log in and look at it on my Zerk as I thought it had changed. I found the % on Wiki and it may have not been updated either way I think we can all agree now that is while it sound nice when you really look at the idea its not a good one and would just make us OP and FOTM.

Andrenaline now heals the zerker for 50% of the dmagae taken not 50% Damage reduction.
But at the end of the day this has been designed as an OFFENSIVE short term buff one which reduces defence for the sake of offensive no matter what you may or may not seen in films. If we got everything we saw and liked in films we'll all be chuck norris.
Right now the gains are few and the drawbacks (mainly health tick) cause many zerkers to think twice about casting it.
It was designed at a time when 27% crit was a HUGE leap up in DPS as it was rare for any melee class to get over 30% crit chance; and casting it virtually doubled your chance to crit. Since you can cap crit now the offensive gains are vastly reduced so the additional crit chance needs to be reworked into a comparable offensive increase.
30% Multi Attack or 15 Melee Weapon Bonus may not sound exciting as what you may want, but it would be a solid change which will allow you to temporarly increase your melee damage at the expense of some defence and keep in line with the orginal flavour of the spell.
Adrenaline change was a really a blow to the clases survival... but at the end of the day you're meant to be the OFFENSIVE warrior in TSF running adrenaline gave you the best survivability out of *all* the tanks asking for massive damage redution on every ability since the change because you think that a beserker should be nigh invunrable whlist doing massive DPS is just not going to happpen.
The beserkers of old times may have been frightning forces on the battle field ignoring wounds that would have felled a lesser man and leaving carnage in their wake... but in general they fought naked and if you chopped their head off they still died like everyone else they just overwhelmed their opponants by completely ignoring their own survival and as such were very hard to fight against - but not impossible.
Juggernaut in the "drop defence for the sake of offense" is entirely within the lore of what a beserker is and whilst the offensive gains may not be as powerful as they once were asking for completly rediculous and significantly overpowered changes are just going to get your concerns ignored.

Boli32 wrote:

The problem with that is, that Guardians can surpass Beserker DPS on single targets while also having superior defensive tools. And the Berserker "offensive" buffs don't really do much for the offensive.

Bremer wrote:

Perfect for a change to Juggernaut to be a offensive temp buff which scales then

Boli32 wrote:

and why does it take 3 years to get a fix put in place for it, and for open wounds? the upgrades they got were a pure and utter joke,

Yup it heals so my mistake still would be OP what Tala is asking for as you could just wear some power proc gear lik the hearth warm set from TSO and slow the power drain and health drain considerably.

Kimber@Nagafen wrote:

Lol... and you know what that would do to my DPS for not wearing a 6% Critical bonus/potency piece...
The War Runes don't proc nearly enough power to keep it up, I'm usually running around at 0%-25% power when I run heroics, even with a chanter. (of course I constantly use adrenaline, but meh).

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

lol do you not understand that I said like? Hell you dont even need to wear the whole set just get the belt out of WoE and its 1 piece of gear that would proc power back to you. If your DPS would drop by that much due to 1 piece of gear after the changes you are asking for to Juggy ( which are still OP btw ) Then you have issues that even changing Juggy would not help. If you are constantly using Adren to stay alive in Heroic zones I dont know what to tell you other than get better gear and make sure your healers are not afk or here is a thought try Def stance with a shield. Wait nm you prolly think we need to be in Off stance and DW all the time although you could just DW in Def stance..... Nope sorry again nm there I go again thinking outside the box I am sure that you know that a Zerk is actually very versitile and can hold aggro in Off stance and Def stance just fine with decent people that know how to play in the group. As for your power issue is your chanter actually there or afk?

Kimber@Nagafen wrote:

Yeah.. I can already tell you don't play a berserker...

Lol right just look up Thetmes on Naggy pretty sure its a Zerk and that its mine have a nice day sorry that you do not understand how to play the class and swap stances when needed and feel the need to /whine to get changes so you dont have to think about how to play or adapt to differant circumstances.

/thread

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

i never use defensive stance, i also rarely need to use adrenaline and i don't have uber gear or the best of healers in the game.
don't disregard the POWER offset from arena in the stamina tree. 10% less may not sound like much but it has ALWAYS made a noticable difference to me. forget the heal proc, that was my point in the other thread, the point of that skill is using 10% less power across the board.

if you need to pop adrenaline THAT much then perhaps you should be wearing gear with parry+defense versus offensive stats OR be using your defensive stance... you're not helping this argument which wasn't even about ADRENALINE.. the temp defensive buffs have always made a huge difference also, so i'f you're not utilizing them properly then you will be overworking your healers and they cost almost nothing compared to adrenaline.

Well said Lyger.

I must have missed the part where he is not using the Stam endline. I thought that and the Str endline were pretty much a given once you have your myth or myth buff. The variable coming in as to if you took Int or Wis since the the Agi tree while yes it gives anouther AOE is kinda redundant once you have your myth or the buff.

I admit that I DW in Def stance more than I run Off stance but that is a pref and I hardly ever have to hit adren unless its a PvP fight.

Kimber@Nagafen wrote:

I always take 10/10/2/1 Int first, then 4/10 Sta, since raid mobs and drundar mobs ignore/strikethrough my Parry/Defence.

Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:

but you're constantly bugging out about always being out of power, then mention in this suggestion thread for juggernaut another power pool drain. all that and you don't even use one of the best power usage AAs we have.
i just don't get it.
almost all of us have power issues with adrenaline, it isn't meant to be an ability that you pop whenever it lights up nor do i want another offensive ability that sucks up my power for a mediocre temp DPS buff.

Lygerr@Mistmoore wrote:

Have you done any drundar zones?
Do you pull entire Room in Kael?
Have you fought those pesky Raid mobs with 100% strikethrough?
Probably, but thats why I constantly use and abuse adrenaline.

I'm usually using a two-hander/off stance, with 15% Hate Gain Adorns so I can only aggro from guys who do 100k+ DPS.

Then maybe you should try something diff although if you are room pulling and living threw everything in Off stance whats the problem or is it hit and miss with you living. If its hit and miss with living try pulling a few less or try Def stance you should be able to hold aggro esp if the rest of your raid or group undersands why you are doing it and pay attention to thier threat.

Threat is not just the tanks responsibility......