Krooner wrote: Been looking for a definate answer on this one for several hours today and I'm getting mixed responses including other forums. I won a charm today called Essence of Utter Insanity that has an increase to poison trigger chance of 3%. I asked if this would add an additional 3% to our AA (giving me 39% chance at 10 points) or not and no one seems to really know. If this item was no-trade, I would attune it and see, but it can be sold or given to others and I would rather give it to our assassin if it does not add to our AA since its a small upgrade for me statwise. Also, I would guess no, but would this also affect any poison procs, such as the Toxic Tempest II that I have on my Wyrmlord Zaos' Toenail? Thanks!
todamgoood4U wrote: Nope, wont increase our AAs and Toxic Tempest is just a proc that does poison damage not a poison proc.
With this expansion bards have climbed up the dps chain. Start give us poison and whatnot and soon ppl will start asking why the **** they would play T1 dps class when they can be that anyway with a ****load of buffs.
Kimmble@Antonia Bayle wrote: That is a rather simplistic arguement. Imagine if you evaluated healers or tanks using the same method. Are we to think that just because the group is better off with a healer......healing, or a tank.......tanking that everything is hunky dorry with all healers and tanks and that they shouldn't also contribute to the group with directly attributable DPS? I don't think Bards need poisons. And we only need a small tweak in directly attributable DPS. We have other more pressing issues other than DPS that need to be addressed imo.
Rhavin wrote: We have not climbed anywhere. Sure we are doing more DPS numbers wise but so is everyone else. If anythign the gap has increased and some healers are not far behind Bards now in DPS numbers.
Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote: I disagree, totally, and completely. It's blanket statements like this that frighten off potential new dirges who may be making their way up the ranks, maybe dipping their feet in raiding for the first time and pushing out 8-10k. 22k numbers may be low if your guild is farming most HM and is completely min-maxing with the raid setup, one that pushes in the 4-600k rw. For an average raid force, even one that can do all normal mode stuff and make a bit of headway in HM encounters, I'd say 13-17k is pretty good, and it will likely drop lower on encounters that aren't smooth like butter yet. Frankly, if I thought it would make a difference and could be done, I'd challenge someone who makes claims like this to zw more than about 1-2k more than me with my current level of progression and my level of guild. And on the opposite end, I'd be willing to bet that in their shoes, my numbers wouldn't fall behind theirs by a significant amount. Basically, don't look at posts like this and get discouraged, especially raider types. If you're hovering about the middle of your raid on the parse, you're probably doing pretty well.
As a Troub I have peaked at 20k a few times but it takes a near perfect setup to do. I would say my average is around 12-15k. That is with 112% Crit, 100% DA, and around 112 DPS mod. I run about 52% on both Potency and Crit Bonus atm. I think I can squeeze a bit more out when I upgrade some TSO non-armor pieces for a bit more Potency and Crit Bonus and when I get fully mastered. So yeah when people toss out high numbers you really need to provide some context.
Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote: Similar setup on my Dirge. I average 12-17K on nameds and 18 to 20K on trash. Honestly let this thread die. If you want easy 30K parses then /reroll We are utility who can still throw out respectable DPS. Give us poisons and you just bork the game further. Were not broke dont try and fix us !
Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote: No. If there is a simplistic point of view in the thread, it's the idea that only DPS, (and more specifically only DPS that is directly attributed up by a parser) contributes to group success.
Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote: Subjectively I seem to have edged up the parse quite a bit. But so do some healers, depending on the encounter. But lets not forget that part of the reason a healer can divert a bit of attention to their own DPSing is because bards (along with other buffers) make their healing job easier. Which is yet another reason why 'lower dps than other scouts' is not a justification for demanding more dps. Bear in mind the parser doesn't give us very good feedback on this aspect of out capability. If a bard buff allows a tank to avoid damage then that makes a healers heal parse get smaller, not bigger. If we are boosting their healing procs (COB) or Gravitas the one thing we can't do it give them the ability to heal damage that hasn't been done! But by allowing them to run at a lower percentage of their healing output then they can be more offensive and have more margin in reserve for tougher encounters. All of this is very obvious but overlooked by many with parse fixation or those with narrow class experience.
I cannot and won't speak on Dirge issues as I am not a Dirge and don't have a Dirge alt. However I am well versed on General Bard issues and Troub issues specifically and this expansion has greatly reduced our "buffing" role. The abundance of gear with offensive stats and abilities (crit, DPS, DA, etc.) is so profound that many classes hit caps either soft or hard without us. This should just not be happening. If SOE removes the need for buffing classes through poor itemization planning then they need to compensate for that loss in other ways. I think this is what is leading to a lot of current frustration among Bards. We are looking at class abilities and AA's that used to have huge impacts on the group and now are pretty much laughable. Right now Troubs are a three trick pony. We have Jesters Cap, Perfection of the Maestro and Upbeat Tempo. That is our bread and butter. Everything else is marginally useful at best. I might cause a bit of a ruckus with my next comment but there is a disparity right now even between Dirges and Troubs. It began with the difference in our mythicals with the Dige myth greatly increasing Dirge auto attack damage and has continued due to the Dirges ability to better self buff themselves from a melee standpoint than Troubs can. It's sad to say but it is an unfortunate fact of the current state of our classes.
I would trade all of my gear, all of my plat and all of my alts for the ability to use poisons in pvp. Fettering FTW.
Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote: Hi Kulanae, <nod> fair points. I was looking at it more from a dirgely point of view, but although this is the dirge forum the OP did specify bards in general. I ran as a troub initially but betrayed to dirge in t7, partly for RP reasons, partly because I felt like running the betrayal sequence and partly because dirge seemed a bit more in demand / more capable. Consequently it may well be that troubs are overdue some love. There are some classes in far worse shape, but thats not an arguement in itself. I still can't support the idea that bards collectively need poison though, so we are in agreement I guess. (personally, as an ex-ranger, I am still in shock with the concept that I can go and hunt and actually make money on almost every fight (bump, even if no treasure) rather than running at a loss due to poison and arrow costs.)
Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote: I would say you are mistaking. Our buffs are still incredibly useful. But now those buffs are not simply pushing people towards the caps, they allow others to equip OTHER stuff than things with +crit chance or +DA and so have better overall stats, with better crit bonus, potency and ability mod, even some casting / reuse speed. If our "buffing job" is wasted in any way, it's because many players are just not good enough at watching their stats after groups/raids setup and optimize their toons with the buffs we grant them. Running around with 120+ crit chance and 125DA is just dumb.
On the 120%+ being dumb, that depends on the mobs, as you can lose it fighting higher endgame mobs. When you see in your persona window is vs even con, though I think most people know that. On the subjet of bards in general, I truly think that they are scouts in name only. Rogues, sure, but they a bastardized class with such profound abilities as a buff bot that it would be hard to place them. Honestly, I would think they have more in common with spellcasters, be it divine or arcane than with scouts. I do not think that Troubs or Dirges should be looking at a parse to find out if they're helpful in a party. Added DPS of any individual is a given, buffs for haste, crit chance/bonus, potency, DA (if not capped given the mobs) and various other aspects of any class makes bards liked by many, and for good reason. To add poisons to this type of class, that would be like saying "I know we make a great improvement to any party, but we want to be in the spotlight for DPS too!" There are DPS specific classes for a reason. If you truly want to play a critical DPS class, reroll. I'm sure there's some out there to suit your needs, poisons or no.
I asked on another forum but only 1 person responded with a guess. I also saw in this thread that soneone replied about an item that increased the poison proc chance. I was in Vig X2 yesterday and saw this drop \aITEM -2041695814 1160911266:[Eye of Kratulus]\/a I passed on it because honestly I was not sure. now read our AA description. Poison ConcoctionRank (*/10) Agility 1 point Requires Wayfarer's Watch (Rank 4) Applies a homemade poison on the Wayfarer's weapons, granting a chance to cause poison damage over-time on a successful hit. TargetSelf Effects: On a successful attack this spell has an x% chance to cast Poison on target of attack. Lasts for 24.0 seconds. Inflicts y poison damage on target Inflicts z poison damage on target every 4 seconds I don't want a guess. It either works or it doesn't. Does anyone have any first hand exp with this or some kind of Dev comment in relation to it stacking for our AA line? Also, I hate when folks try to fit Bards into this fairytale store bought version of a class that should be an exact way. Stop doing that and plus this game has been out almost 6 years...... Bards are "No Way" near other scouts dps, giving us the ability to use Crafted poisons does not take away from the class. We can use poisons via an AA line why not allow us to use Tradeskilled poisons?
One of my biggest problem in wrapping my head around some of the concepts in this game is that I am a paragonist, a person who believes that "you do what your job says" and absolutely nothing else. Fighters fight, nothing else, Paladin's tank, nothing else, Coercer's are crowd control and nothing else. Obviously this is flawed because that's not the way it is, but I also think the game has gone a little overboard in granted things to more classes than should have been. Only a select few classes should even come close to the top of the parse, only a few classes should put out the massive amounts of healing, only a few classes should be able to stand up to the blows of heroic or epic mobs. Other classes can do a handful of things, but aren't the best at them, they are support. Again, this can be flawed. But I believe this goes into the "give another class yet another option that other classes have." I know its something small, but (and run with me for a sec on this, its going to sound corny) if everyone asked for things that they should have, eventually you'd just have the same class x24. I can argue that wizards should be able to spec battlemage, therefore they should be able to wear plate armor and use STR as a primary buff. Or that warlocks could fall into the class of conjuror, they should get evil pets. Not every class gets what the other classes of the same genre get. Not all mages get pets, not all fighters are OP tanks, not all scouts get poisons. Variety is a blessing. Bards true worth are not in their own capacities, but in the increase they give a party.
Funny to see bards complaining. most well put together guilds don't even want a ranger, they will probably want one assassin and one of each rogue, but they will want double or more in bards. usually only want only one troub, but definitely not zero troubs. Again, equal to or better off than other scouts save dirges. Dirges are definitely the 'it' scout right now. If dirges are doing badly other scouts are way more F'd. If someone is constantly running around with more than 100 DA they need to learn how to equip their character. I guarantee they could dump some of it for crit bonus, potency or ability mod. If your only measuring enchanter and bard success by the parse, you should check your jacket for a name tag that says "Captain of the Failboat"
Kyaaadaa@Nagafen wrote: Except if you are talking about mobs with DS or AEs that decrease crit chances, you are mistaking. Crit chance is UNCONTESTED. It doesnt vary in function of your opponent. People telling that are refering to old mecanisms that could have been right back in TSO (if ever). It was clearly stated by a dev in a greatly interesting post that your crit hit rate isnt lowered against mobs whose level >>> you. Though a FEW mobs might have hidden buffs that would reduce the party crit chances or things like that. I have 100,8 % crit chance, and on all of my parses with mobs that dont have crit chance debuffs, in old TSO, LoDQ, Palace of RT, or PC Laboratory, my auto attack crit hits 100% of the time, period. So I'm completing and saying it again, running around with 120+ CC or DA is not smart AT ALL, if it is not for well-thought purpose.
