item progression: shoulders

Discussion in 'Monk' started by ARCHIVED-zaboron, Apr 26, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED-Gungo Guest

    Easiest way to think of risk vs reward. ask your self this question.
    In which case would equipping your guild be done faster?
    Doing the entire claymore series for each memeber of your guild OR raiding every night.
    The point is no group quest rewards should not be better then fabeld raid items but they should be comparable almost even equal to many of them especially the final rewards in a long quest series. Sorta like the ring of fate.
    The dragon spauldrons were comparable maybe a bit much on the mitigation which is why it was nerfed, but i have no problem with that. I have a problem with the concept that quest rewards should not be equal to or in rare instaces better then raid items, because they don't involve a raid.
    Message Edited by Gungo on 05-18-2006 01:33 PM
  2. ARCHIVED-Dandelize Guest

    Lol you make me laugh. You call nerf on them, they nerf the effect, then to all.monks you go complaining like its the end of the world....
    Silly Cage...
  3. ARCHIVED-Gaige Guest

    Its Gaige for the last time. Either address me by my name or don't address me. Its quite annoying.
    Also I didn't complain about the nerf to the effect at all, I said I was glad they nerfed them and I am. If I recall correctly you brought up the nerf to the effect, not me.
    Sorry if you sensed sarcasm where there wasn't any.
    Message Edited by Gaige on 05-18-2006 03:49 PM
  4. ARCHIVED-Azazel-Defiant Guest

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Gaige wrote:
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    Code2501 wrote:
    To go further, you belittled the efforts of players who compleate a lenghty quest line, which requires many named mobs that can require hours upon hours of camping (you think organising a raid is hard, try convincing 6 people to sit in one room for 5 hours just to get one of those named mobs). That Gaige is just plain reprehensible, and you are wrong for doing so.
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    My point is given the fact it was legendary and a quest reward I felt it was overpowered. Granted I understand how item tradeoffs work, but excuse me for not finding any tradeoff in the pre-adjusted shoulders.
    They had +60 to stats, +health, +resist, +mit, +defense. They only thing they didn't have was power, which was indirectly applied through the str on them.
    To look at them honestly when compared to fabled shoulders dropping off raids and say they were in line... you just can't do it.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I can. I did.
    Just because you personally dont see a trade off in the item, doesnt mean there wasnt one. If designers had given the item 55 health + 55 power rather than 110 health would it have been more obviously inferior? What if they had decreased the mit and increased the resists by 500? I can agree that this item was excellent for tanking physically damaging enemies. It wasnt the best for DPSing in raids, avoiding AoEs, soloing, or grouping. In fact it was inferior at these roles. It wasnt even the very best available tanking set of shoulder pads, even though it was obviously designed for that purpose.
    I do have a problem with the mitigation on the item being lowered the way it was. It wasnt balanced by an increase in another area, and the decrease was only made to the brawler quest reward. One reward is now laughably less valuable than any other reward for that quest. That is the kind of imbalance we are supposed to monitor for and prevent.
    Az
  5. ARCHIVED-Ashengur Guest

    especially the final rewards in a long quest series
    Shoulders are not the final reward in a long quest series

    and azazel, im interested in what everyone has to say, but that tiny font kills my eyes at the resolution I keep. Mind making it a bit larger :p
    Message Edited by Ashengur on 05-18-2006 09:55 PM
  6. ARCHIVED-Gaige Guest

    Oh really? Well please tell me what were then.
  7. ARCHIVED-Xxooo-Coav Guest

    Zaboron - Get off your high horse for once.... less and less, people are caring how elite you may be... and to justify, anyone can be elite if they have the time to play as much as elite guilds require. I know I have been at both ends. Stop trying to prove you are the the best of anything. I assure you, you are not. Try to treat people with respect on these boards, because again, I assure you, you are not.
    How many times have you killed an epic x4 mob (King Zalak for instance), and received virtually nothing? How about going into Gates and not getting any masters in the first 2 courts, leading people to quit for the night? How about Lab of Lord Vyemm and find 6 drops for bards through the first 4 named? Overall, yes it sucked... but it did better someone. These bags you are talking about would greatly benefit someone. Who cares if its worthless to you. If you didnt like it, move on. This game is not revolving around you. Take a look at the current poll on the main forum page.... Yeah... a whopping 13% (out of 1840 votes as of this post) are epic x4 raids, which means roughly 86% of the game is grouping or soloing. Thats what this game should be revolving around... the main playerbase, not a few 24/7 players.

    All that said, things are blown out of porportion now. Seemingly, some monks have made themselves to be infamous in the eyes of the monk community, and that really sucks. I always thought this forum was to help try and keep us together, complain about things that hold monks down, not fight among ourselves stating that xxxx item should be better than yyyy item because XXXX drops it, and yyyy is only quested.
    Lets just try and enjoy ourselves and the company of the rest of the monks. We have enough people gunning for us; we dont need insider attacks as well.
  8. ARCHIVED-Code2501 Guest

    If this post achieves anything it just proves that raiding is simply a timesink, and really does not represent great effort. At the end of the day, raids are farmable, quests which reward items are able to be compleated once per character only, ever. There never existed a logical reason why raid loot must automatically be better, in every respect, to any gear obtained otherwise. There are just too few raiders honest enought to admit it, because they are afraid of letting the cat out of the bag and having the devs go crazy with itemisation.
    Given enough effort required, there is no reason why an in game reward should not be better in some respect than other items in the game.
    And I still think a gap in the itemisation options of fabled gear should not require a nerf to non-fabled gear to fix, simply fill the gap.

    Message Edited by Code2501 on 05-18-2006 10:27 PM
  9. ARCHIVED-Gaige Guest

    C'mon Xxooo you're better than that, please don't reference that worthless poll in your rant. Agree with the nerfing of the shoulders or not, that poll is absolutely worthless.
    1829 Forum goers who vote on polls responded:
    41% said they primarily solo
    17% said they primarily duo
    43% said they primarily group or raid
    Or if you want to split it up 28% said they primarily group and 15% said they primarily raid.
    For one, this poll shows nothing. It shows that about 1829 people who read the forums and actually respond to polls usually solo. However you could vote multiple times (by cancelling and renewing your subscription) or you could vote if you had cancelled and don't even play anymore as long as you have forums access.
    Secondly, the sample size is crazy small. Not even 2000 responses out of a game that has a playerbase well in excess of 250k. Laugh. Out. Loud.
    Even then if you look at the responses and actually try to give them merit you'll see 41% usually solo, 17% usually duo and 28% usually group, with 15% usually raiding.
    If you look at the content in this game its mostly solo/group stuff with a minority of raids.
    Seems right on target to me.
    Message Edited by Gaige on 05-18-2006 11:06 PM
  10. ARCHIVED-Code2501 Guest

    I dont get it... you make some valid points on why the poll should be looked at sceptically, then basically state the content is about in proportion with what the poll indicates, and hence validaite Xxooo's point. o_O
  11. ARCHIVED-scalzo Guest

    Common now all chill out :smileyvery-happy:
    How about an ice cold beer? This Phrog lubs beer.
  12. ARCHIVED-selch Guest

    Sorry man, that's why we are on those boards. To discuss things and never letting them happen again. Because it is not something to be chilled out and let a single ignorant talk "in the name of monks"
  13. ARCHIVED-zaboron Guest

    soe didnt fix those shoulder pads because someone asked for it, soe fixed them because they thought they were overpowered.
  14. ARCHIVED-selch Guest

    If it was so, chain and plate would be "fixed" compared to their fabled versions. Obviously it is a "select" / "on demand" / "just because legendary/fabled comprasion without checking why or where it has been given" nerf, Stop with excuses, that's lame. Ashamed of sharing same class with your type like rest of "brawlers"


    Message Edited by selch on 05-19-2006 04:47 AM
  15. ARCHIVED-Xxooo-Coav Guest

    Gaige,
    You do make a good point. the voting base is small, however, it still a good measurement to gage.
    Its like those polls of asking 100 people. Granted, its small, but its still a decent base to gage statistics.
    I doubt that poll will make it to 3k, which is sad, because how many people frequent these boards? I am sure it exceeds that.
    Unfortunately, this game tries to cater to the (for the sake of stats, we will use the polls) 14% of the game that raids. Truthfully, I think only 5-8% is actually (high) high end (Deathtoll, etc).... I know there are numerous guilds who farm Lab and Lyceum, and call themselves raiding guilds. Quite the difference. So really, the game tries to cater to the 5-8% of the players. I dont mean basing the entire game around this elite few. There is a ton of content for single grouping (at least I think there is). But itemization is based on feedback from the elite few. I dont know if it was feedback that changed (for those that remember) the DoF quest reward from Master 1 to Adept 1. It was the high end guilds that completed that quest first, then shortly thereafter, it was changed to adept 1 (with no change to those that received the master) for all the 'regular' players.
    When this game came out, they tried to iterate that you can still be very well equipped, and enjoy most of what the game had to offer without full time raiding. That quickly disappeared in DoF. In my opinion, its all going back to EQ1; where you can see Gaige is guilded in a high end guild, welcoming (uber) drop after drop, whereas Xxooo is unguilded, finding gear through freakishly horrible questlines and random instances. Does this make Xxooo any less of a player? In the eyes of the community, yes. Am I truthfully? I sure dont think so.
    A year ago, you could tell who was in what guild, but it didnt matter as much.
    My point is this: In EQ1, people based their grouping on what equipment you had. Well, on Torv anyway. I remember people would welcome me (druid) into their group, sometimes as the main healer purely because I was in the top guild on the server. They believed I would be more capable than that cleric from a lower tier guild. Was that the case? Not always.
    I believe this is starting to become the issue in EQ2. I have been in forming groups, and I 'listen' to the people talking about this tank and that tank. One time, I actually read someone say 'Get Soandso, he's in FoH, he has to be good.' ... This caught my eye, because this immediately followed my post of 'What about Thisguy? He's a great tank. Little quiet, but very capable.' They never initially said no, but never said yes.
    I just think that its becoming commonplace now. Does this mean that just because I am unguilded that people will think less of me and not invite me to groups? Well, thats hard to say. I have a large network of people that know me. I see these newly lvl 70 monks, and think 'where the f... did this monk come from?'; but I see it happening with others. Some only wanting to group with higher end people. People thinking they are too good to help an up and coming player through an instance. Or not wanting him because he has never been through Den of Devourer. 'Sorry, we need someone who has done this zone before' .......
    Sorry for going off on tangents. Just my thoughts on where this all seems to be leading.
    (this coming from a player who isnt even 1/2 done with the Claymore quests..hehe)

    (editted for a few spelling errors)
    Message Edited by Xxooo-Coav on 05-19-2006 05:35 AM
  16. ARCHIVED-zaboron Guest

    Why should raiding gear be better than groupable gear?
    Simple answer:
    You need the best gear for the hardest raids, but you can beat all group content in average gear.
  17. ARCHIVED-Gungo Guest

    This statement is entirely wrong.
    You can raid in pure resist gear as a dps. Read situational gear.
    You will die tanking HoF in crafted gear w adept 1 spells.
    Gear is equally important in every aspect of the game as it imporves each aspect. To say otherwise is being nieve. The bets gear makes raids easier. The best gear makes grouping easier.
    You do not need the best gear to beat the hardest raid mobs in game (read mutagenic/princes). You do need decent gear to do them, and mainly a sollid strategy.
    Hof does not need the best gear to beat it. It does need decently geared or well played character.
    It has always been my experience that xp groups can really make a player shine in how well that character perfroms and plays. Whereas raids only shows how well a guild listens to strats and follows through. There is very little skill involved in raiding. How hard is it to tell one healer. Ok your job is to just spam cure trauma. Ok the defiler that warden and templar spam heal the MT. Ok the other 2 healers in heal the offtank. Ok that zerker there is the MA. Have him agor the adds. everyone assist the Zerker until adds are dead then sit behind the mob until it dies. Yeah for skill. Please that is not skill that is simon says. Skill is seeing an enchanter mezz 2 seprate encounters, then root a third add. while the healer hits his emergecny heal, arcane cures the mt single target heals the enchanter who got hit. where the tank rescues the mob off the enchanter before he dies, switches to anothe radd and spams his taunts to ge [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off the healer. then the brigand switches to defensive taunts anothe radd off the enchanter and the group lives w/o a death. Skill is doing something you should do w/o being told what to do just becuase you are skilled enough to know what to do at the right time.
  18. ARCHIVED-Gaige Guest

    Sure Gungo, I suppose it'd be that easy - if everything always went as planned while raiding. It doesn't of course and people need to react and do things of their own accord also.
    Oh, and if raiding is easy and just 23 people doing what 1 person tells them to do everytime, I fail to see how heroic grouping is any different. Its 5 people doing what the tank says.
    This is an endless debate by the way. Fun though I suppose.
    Oh and Xxooo I can see your point - I just think items should scale properly. Especially quest rewards.
  19. ARCHIVED-Gungo Guest

    I guess my feeling is raiding is more about the skill of a few people with many other players just following what those handful of players do. Whereas a good group since it is smaller and more intimate is more dependant on individuals in the group all performing well.
    To be more exact raiding seems to be alot more successful based only on a few conditions. a good strategist (or person with inside info=p), a good raid organizer (to know spells and set up groups optimally), a good main Tank. Beyond that a few players will always shine out. Liek the offtank who is aware and grabs agro. The enchanter who is quick on adds. Fast curing or healing reactive healer. and the rest while ok players just hack and slash. Few have the initiative to do whatever is not outside thier box. How many fighters do you see ever use intercepts when the MT hits red? How many preist heal use thier death prevention spell when they should on dps who draw agro in group. How many casters root adds away from raid when they should. Its the simple things that make a raid successful or not and most times its only based on a few aware individuals.
    I raid daily and i still enjoy grouping with people outside of guild. we don't activly recruit. I tend to group with people and see how they are and play. Thats how i judge a player knows what he is doing. So many people Don't play with any sort of awarenes of their surroundings or don't utilise all thier classs assets. Liek guards who refuse to use many protection abilites cause "they suck" as they say. That imho shows an poorly played character.
  20. ARCHIVED-Gungo Guest