Is the next expac pay 2 win, cause I'm spent

Discussion in 'General Gameplay Discussion' started by Altho, Aug 24, 2017.

  1. Ashandra Well-Known Member

    I don't understand how any player can support the pay to win model that has been adopted by this company people just get fed up and leave in the end game over .
    Juraiya, Chimeron, Ruckus and 9 others like this.
  2. Mizgamer62 Feldon Fan Club Member

    ^^^ THIS ^^^

    All feedback is important. When in this case, players work hard to silence other players because they don't like negative feedback, they not only hurt themselves, their fellow players, but the game as a whole. Negative feedback is very important to the producers of any product and service and when they pay attention to it, it benefits them and their consumers.
    Juraiya, Chimeron, Feldon and 7 others like this.
  3. Mizgamer62 Feldon Fan Club Member

    No one likes seeing the pay to win mechanic in any game period. If this game had started with pay to win mechanics in place, then at least people that chose to play it regardless wouldn't have known any difference. The problem with trying to implement that in a game this old is that people have come to expect otherwise. People feel like they are being price gouged six ways from Sunday. In my opinion, the least they could do is end the subscription model and become buy to play. We buy any new expansions and content updates period. The buy to play model is beginning to replace the subscription model and is working very well.
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  4. Castegyre Well-Known Member


    It's not so much about supporting the pay to win aspect of things as it is blindly defending the game itself against criticism. Which is a sure way to help the game die, but I don't think they realize that or care.
    Juraiya, Chimeron, Feldon and 7 others like this.
  5. Kioske Well-Known Member

    Look, if they want to go pay to win, stop charging me $15 a month to play their game. They can't have it both ways. You either go with P2W or you go sub mode. The game was very balanced the way they did F2P back in CoE and ToV, you could not buy any gear upgrades or stat boosts or spells. They added in the research purchase somewhere around the end of ToV, but even that wasn't bad because you had a feasible way to get to grand master spells without taking all expac to do it. Getting ascension spells to grand master without pay to win is like pulling teeth. I challenge anyone defending the idea to show me a single person who has all GM ascension spells 10 months into the expansion on a single ascension, without spending a single dollar in cash. Hell find me a person that has 4 of the 8 useful spells GM without a single dollar in cash. FIND ME someone with 2 of their ascension spells GM without the benefit of P2W.

    20-25 days per level from Apprentice to Expert to research = 100 days
    40-45 days per level from Expert to Grandmaster = 80-90 more days
    4 straight months of running experts almost every single day and today I finally got my 3rd master page for Scorched Earth, has anyone been lucky enough to get 10 of a spell they'd actually scribe? I sure as hell get plenty for the level 1 and level 5 useless buffs... (obviously the drop rate on those two spells is much much higher).

    Grand Master scrolls, which typically drop in raid, are fairly rare as well. I have 12 Etherealists in my raid force looking to get spells grand mastered. They can either pay to get it, or research it, or fight over the 1-2 etherealist GM spells that drop every month...

    This is for a single spell.... 180-190 days to get a single spell to GM, or $75 real world cash. GM spells do 125-150% more damage than apprentice. More than double the damage output of the top 4 spells on your parse for real life cash. How on earth anyone can defend this being okay is beyond me. I feel like it's just trolling at this point, or just arguing to argue.

    All I want, all ANYONE wants, is for the spells to be achieved in game instead of being bought with real life money. DBG has not been a pay to win game in the past, and that's why many of us still use it. If the model was "pay for them today for $75 or grind for 1-2 months to get them in game" I'd still disagree with the model, but I probably wouldn't come to the forums, much like many others, and tell DBG that we will not continue to pay for their game if they want this to be the route they take.
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  6. -Soteria- Well-Known Member


    Well, my guild just "won" raid progression one last time... (http://progress.eq-raiders.com/) so I can answer that question: You win raid progression by clearing encounters first.

    This may have been changed (I think they added the delevel effect to all tiers of the spell at some point), but when we pulled our first T4 raid encounter you had to have at least a few Elementalists with Master+ Glacial Freeze to keep the mobs deleveled so they weren't red to you and resisting most of your attacks in order to stand any chance of getting the kill. That was before Adept and Master tiers dropped through gameplay *at all* and you didn't get that spell until level 8, which players had only just reached when we started pulling that encounter. This meant the choice you had was either the people who'd chosen elementalist as their first ascension class paid for the upgrades or you lost ground on raid progression to a guild whose elementalists did pay for the upgrades.

    That's not even playing loose with the conceptual meaning of pay to win...That's like if you planned your marathon route to go across a toll bridge you owned, and the contestants had a choice between paying the toll to run across the bridge, or waiting two months until the off season when they can cross the bridge for free.

    Of course that's only the most blatant example, and doesn't even touch the fact that raiders could essentially buy their way past dps checks with $$ - which is why a lot of the raid script design moved away from dps checks and towards "don't do anything" checks -- which (hard to believe, I know) isn't actually a rewarding experience. In my opinion, that is the biggest way the pay-to-win nature of ascension spells contributed to the lousy raid experience this expansion.



    It's a terrible model, and that's all there is to it.
  7. Cirvandal Active Member

    Watch me outparse you with my eyes closed. You have no clue what you are speaking of, please vanish.
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  8. Cirvandal Active Member

    You are comparing ice hockey with warfare.
  9. Kioske Well-Known Member

    This is how raids in KA feel 100%. It feels like a strat for certain harder encounters aren't even put into the game during launch, because they're unfinished. The Devs built the first T4 encounter to be impossible to clear because you couldn't get to the later encounters until you killed it. Then after 1-2 months of complaining about it being impossible (literally to the tune of the best guilds in the world couldn't get them down beyond 75% health in the 15 minute enrage timer) the encounter is made semi trivial, 20+ guilds kill it the night of the "nerf" patch, and the next encounter is the "impossible" to kill encounter. Rinse repeat. It really feels like they built all the super easy "strats" first, and then the encounters they wanted to have the detailed scripts weren't done yet. Kind of like the Ascension gate, because it felt like epic 2.0 spells weren't even fully developed at expansion launch. They're gating content because they are still working on expansion features that should have been in place during launch, because they were billed as PART of the expansion.
  10. Alenna Well-Known Member

  11. Kraeref Well-Known Member

    The GM of Ascension spells though is. I spent helluva money to get to that level on most of my spells for only one class to bring enough DPS to support my guild to kill t3/t4. I have exhausted my funds so I am upgrading other three using snail mail option.

    And whatever you all trying to teach that guy you all insulting here for his opinion it is a pay per win game now. Get all GM level of spells you kill names by sheer DPS and basically ignoring scripts. So whatever...
  12. Feldon Well-Known Member

    P2W has never been the business model. It's never been announced as the business model and in fact we were told repeatedly in lengthy interviews and articles that player power would not appear on the Marketplace. We were given numerous reassurances. So your comment is more like "If you don't like EQ2 putting a price on things they said they'd never put a price on, well that's your problem."

    Raid targets should die when your raid force has learned the encounter, acquired the gear and skills necessary to defeat it, and put the work in. They should not die after several members of the raid force swipe a Visa or MasterCard.
    Jeeshman, Stach, Juraiya and 21 others like this.
  13. Uxtalzon Active Member

    This is absent in nearly every single game under Daybreak now. Our current producer has the extra dubious distinction of helping Landmark's demise without so much as a shred of empathy to the players and that has extended to EQ and EQ2. Ongoing issues, questions, concerns, complaints, suggestions... ignored, locked, or removed. A few developer comments here and there just isn't enough.

    The next expansion forces players to progress their skills by each tier book, encouraging P2W while making the grind to earn those skills even worse or longer than before.

    I don't see myself even playing anymore, haven't even been online in over a month I think. I just don't care anymore. It's too far down the rabbit hole that the only thing to convince me to return and raise hope for the entire EverQuest franchise is a change in staff that's been long, long overdue.
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  14. -Soteria- Well-Known Member


    This should be the tl;dr of the whole thread.
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  15. Cirvandal Active Member

    I have another one for ya: Great game turned to Second Life trash.
  16. Alphaville New Member

    Some people have a funny definition of "Win". First to take down a raid mob? A Visa card won't get you there. You'll need an organized and motivated raid force, willing to spend plenty of time gearing up, who all know what they are doing and who have no lives outside of the game at least for some time period.

    And, at the moment, a visa card.

    None of that sounds like win to me though. I just want a game I can spend some time each evening playing, and make steady progress on raid mobs over time. I will leave that other version of "winning" to people who are just a little crazed. They may burn bright, but then they burn out, post about how awful the game is, and leave.

    Feedback. Yeah feedback is great. And the more useful feedback the devs get the better. But complaining that the sky is blue (things just aren't what they used to be! the good old days!) doesn't get you anywhere. Seriously, focus on stuff that is practical, and the game will get better. Just whine and whine, and all you do is chase prospective players away- players which are desperately needed to keep the game alive, and yeah, since I like the game, I want that. So sure if you want to see the game end whine away. Otherwise make the feedback something useful.
  17. Feldon Well-Known Member

    So you think all raiders are:
    [IMG]
    Mizgamer62 likes this.
  18. Cirvandal Active Member

    Please have at least 1 year of raiding experience before opening your mouth about a matter you have no clue about.
  19. Feldon Well-Known Member

    [IMG]
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  20. Alphaville New Member

    If you read for comprehension you'll see I'm addressing those raiders who are FIRST to take down a raid mob. And yeah I think a lot of them have no life outside the game, for the time leading up to the kill.

    I started raiding with KoS. I've stayed up till the next day to finish a VP run. I know a wide variety of raiders from casual to extreme, male, female, young, old. So I know there's no one stereotype.

    Which is why I don't have much sympathy for those who complain that a visa card is needed for them to have their first kill. I'm not that crazed. I like the game but I don't live it.

    I'm sorry you're unhappy. I think you're wanting something you can't have, though, which is "the way it was". That's gone, just make what IS the best it can be.
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