You are right dirtbeard, we have no numerical information and I am not saying the skill is not manageable with a little effort. The problem is that by comparison to other classes we can effortlessly get agro at will. This is something other classes are in an uproar about. I would rather identify and acknowledge broken abilities so that they can be fixed rather than having sony "fix" something that is not broken in the first place. Like their wonderfull patch in the first eq that made pets incapable of breaking mez making my chanter mage duo a nightmare, just because some mages were incompetent at managing their pet. The problem with getting hard numbers is no one is going to reverse engeneer it and post here, since that breaks the license agreement and is grounds for termination of the account. We have to go off the results of tests in a controlled environment. It may be possible to quantify the aggro generated by a buff by locking an encounter and having one person take agro with a buff and do nothing untill another takes agro from them trough small but frequent melee hits. When the mob turns to the damage dealer he would theoreticly do damage equivalent to the hate generated by the buff. It would be intresting to note the difference between particular spells as well as that between a single target buff and a group one. Also weather a group buff generates a fixed ammount of agro or if it is based on the number of group members affected. The whole issue people have with bloodlust is derived from their idea of a basic group makeup. You have your healer, your four damage dealers, and a guy who keeps the attention of the mobs and gets pummeled. No one really looks for damage output from the main tank when they set out to make the group. They alreday plan four people for that job. The survival part is (mostly) in the hands of the healer, that leaves the tank primarily with agro controll. Something that is trivialized to the berserker. My point was not that no one can keep agro off a berserker with bloodlust, it is not broken because it generates more agro than we want or can handle. It just generates more than it should to maintain a balance amongst the fighter classes. But overall, You are right aggro and damge are not the same thing. It does not affect the game that much, save for a few healers that lived when they should not have, propably just to run out of power and evac in the end anyway. P.S. I just have to say Your rebuttal was very well written. I just had to 5 star it.