Impending Swashbuckler nerfs

Discussion in 'Test Server Forum' started by Delethen, Feb 21, 2013.

  1. Davngr Well-Known Member

    devs need to separate naggy and bg's..

    i've seen del and other swash go balls deep on a good healer and not budge him along with me. add to that invincible tanks with stupid amounts of taunt lock and you have a crappy boring game.

    the nerfs to the prestige were ok because they hit mostly everyone but these extra nerfs to dps classes is killing their group function and BG's is all about groups not dumb 1v1 crap

    people who use the 1v1 argument should just go play playstation because MMO's are about GROUPING.
    Mimixx(2) likes this.
  2. Mimixx(2) Member

    The thing is that either HP at BG's need to be higher or the heals receved by healer should be high or the heals could be small but the casting time could be faster and recast time longer.
  3. acoloss Active Member

    there isn't anything wrong atm..

    if you are in a bg and your group is dying, or your healers are dying, it's because you don't have a Good tank and 2 good healers (of different types, e,g, Cleric + Shaman, or Cleric + Druid, or Druid + Shaman)...
    if you have good players of those types, then you should be fine....

    if you can't kill their healers or players, then you need 3 good DPS as well as the above.. you need to assist and play good...

    when you have the above there are no problems at all with this game in regards to group PvP..

    there are no excuses i'm afraid.

    the problem with BGs is you don't get the perfect setups, the perfect players, or people in good gear.. you cannot base how well or broke the game is based on random pickup groups in a BG
  4. acoloss Active Member

    also from reading some more stuff on here...

    A ranger should not be complaining about a Swashy... a Ranger is probably the most powerful 1 v 1 toon in the game right now... yes a swashy/brig is going to kill you in 3 seconds if they get on you.... but that's the whole point of a ranger (a predator hunter).. you should be watching where he is and making sure he doesn't get on top of you... it's not about standing still and spamming your DPS until he's on top of you.. it's about moving away/snaring/evading .. from range they can do 1/100th the things that you can do.

    it doesn't feel too good when you get killed in:

    Assassin - 1 second
    Ranger - 2 seconds (from range)
    Brig - 3 Seconds
    Swashy - 3.5 seconds

    but in all fairness.. it's always been like this, and even though i'd prefer if all dps was lowered across the board, and hps lowered to match so that we'd have longer fights.. i still think the game is the best it's ever been with regards to balance.
  5. Pippin Active Member

    Acoloss - Im providing feedback from playing 6 different 95/320 classes and from a BG perspective only. I have no open world PVP experience so really cannot comment on that.

    I dont think Rangers are the most powerful in BG although overall a well played Ranger is certainly very effective at some things just like a host of other classes. Only ones I think are lacking right now are Dirge and Guardian.

    You mentioned that Ranger does their damage Ranged. We have no realistic option but that... if we are within melee range of you we cannot even use our CA's or bows. A ranger close up is a complete **** - a little dog with no teeth. Id be fine with a redesign to strengthen the close up abilities though so that is an option ;)

    Also bear in mind casters also do ranged dmg with a host of cc and survivability options. More often than not going up against an equally equipped Lock / Conj / Wiz and they are aware Im coming or notice Im attacking they pop their temps and I need to run away or die.

    Im totally ok with that btw - rock / paper / scissors as it should be.
  6. Mimixx(2) Member

    No problem? In klak'anon the team that got most healers always wins. The auto grouping should be fixed so that atleast each team got all the arche types.
    Yesterday I entered a match in Ganak. The raid team was as follows:

    1 group:

    2 rangers
    1 Beastlord
    1 dirge
    1 Inquisitor (me)

    2 group :

    1 berserker
    1 assasin

    And the only high lvl was the ranger 70. While the other team was having 89,80, etc.

    I think Devs should try 30-60 and 61-89
  7. Ajjantis Well-Known Member

    Time to get more involved in this matter.

    There are plenty reasons why this nerf is wrong, i'll give you a few examples and a few comparisons.

    First off yes, EQ2 is a MMORPG, doesn't mean that there shouldn't be some kind of balance between the classes in 1 vs 1 scenarios. So whoever said that balancing should only be done solely on grouping was completely wrong. This game has more than grouping, there's enough solos and duo's running around to justify that. You may not like this idea, and you are welcome to have your own opinion but stop talking for the majority of the people, when you do not represent them. Having this cleared up, we can go into the balancing question about swashbucklers.

    Yes swashbuckler are usually in the top parses in Battlegrounds, unfortunately that does not mean much. The reason we can top the parse is the way BG's actually work. There are masses of people, often crowded in a small area which lets the swashbuckler do his kind of damage. Swashbuckler kind of damage is AoE damage. Of course he'll be creating good numbers, his unloading all his AoE Combat arts as well as his AoE auto attack damage.

    The problem: That does NOT necessarily mean that anyone has actually died. Swashbuckler do substantial damage over time, they are not good at burning people down. At least not when compared to Assassins, Beastlords, Wizards, Ranger, Warlocks etc.

    The bigger the numbers on the parse by the way, the less people usually die. Its easy for an enemy healer to keep their group up with group heals when a swashy is simply doing good AoE dps. While the swashbuckler will top the dps parse, their healer will top the healing parse.

    Dance of Metal was pretty much the only way to have a CHANCE at burning someone down. It never gave a guarantee to win the fight. It only gave a potential chance, please learn the difference. Dance of Metal required you to make a chain of combat arts, any kind of interrupting (be it a stun, de-target, out of range, stifle, block/parry/dodge, Divine Aura, whatever; this list is almost endless) broke that chain up. Only the last 3 Triggers actually did meaningful numbers in PvP. Usually you end up with the first 4-5 triggers doing MINOR damage.

    Yes we are a T2 class, but what do we actually get in exchange for being a T2 class? Nothing. The mezz is so bad, we don't really have that much of other supporting skills except a hate transfer which in many situation or when solo does not help. Yes, sometimes we run around solo as i've mentioned before. The world doesn't completely evolve around grouping.
    So as long as you throw that T2 excuse at me, as long will i ask for other stuff for giving up this DPS.

    Lets go away from the unnecessary nerf of dance of metal and lets have a look at the overall comparison. How many classes can we actually kill when gear and skill is on par? Brawlers? Erm... Assassins or rangers? Erm.... A good healer? Never. Not even before the interrupt change of our offensive stance. A T1 Caster? A Pain.

    In the end the swashbuckler is one of the classes that has to work for his kills, he has a ton of short time buffs he actually needs to cast, to unload his full potential. Every second casting something else is lost time and gives the enemy time to spot you, make his own preparation, attack you or even escape. Having all buffs running, the class is indeed dangerous, but so are many other classes nowadays.

    I don't want to sound as a whiny player here, i'm surely gonna adapt and move on but i still wont accept any nerf thrown at my class. Having something actually giving me a chance to finish dangerous or hard opponents was very nice, things are made from hard to "almost" impossible now. Of course we aren't happy about the change.

    EDIT: Before anyone starts arguing about the offensive debuffs that Swashbuckler once actually made worth having for, these do not do anything meaningful in PvP. A combat art that does minor dmg but has a debuff attached to it is not worth to cast. Its all about doing as much dmg as possible in the shortest time. -80 dps or -80 attack speed is not going to help in this case. These spells have lost their use ages ago in PvE and really never worked in pvp. While the brigands dispatch is actually one of the nicer debuffs to have, all other debuffs are not going to make a change. Thats the reason why we are actually a T2 dps class, unfortunately the given things in exchange do not help. So either keep the dps as it is or give meaningful debuffs.
  8. acoloss Active Member

    just saying.. in pvp you are supposed to make sure the swashy or anyone doesnt get on you... that's what your primary goal should be.. but yes.. in a bg you can't really play how you are supposed to.
    against a mage can't you use the miregals (spelt wrong) charm for extra range?.. then kill mages from max range? (maybe this got nerfed?)

    also note.. i'm not sticking up for swashies in anyway.. and this comment may contradict what i already said...

    i think the DoM nerf is actually good (maybe just remove the last trigger though).. because if it's the best healer vs the best swashy, then it should be a power fight, not a guaranteed win for the swash, and the swashy would probably still win with mental breach + mending adorns + lifestone anyway...

    in reality.. this is what i believe should happen (said this before)....
    mending adorns should heal less.. and the best swashy vs the best healer should be Power Vs HP.. the swashy should have 1% health at the end of the fight, and the healer should have 0% power... this would be a fair balanced 1 v 1... but in reality to get this right, the devs would need to put the best swash against the best healer to get the data :)

    if it's not the best healer then he'll probably still be burst down...
  9. Ajjantis Well-Known Member

    Pipin in this case there's really worlds between pvp and bg. In pvp you have the freedom to use the environment. Playerskills play a bigger role than in other cases. You know back in the day (during KoS prime time) you had ranger hiding at the entrance of tenebrous tangle on the "stonething" right at the portal. You would zone in and get killed. Trying getting up there while the ranger is shooting anything on sight? Impossible. A BG is so limited in area, even smuglers den. You would have loved the good old days of open pvp!
  10. acoloss Active Member

    also note.. i don't know of any decent rangers having problems with any mages to be fair (but that's in open world).
  11. Pippin Active Member

    Ajjantis - fair enough I agree that although they pool BG and PVP in the same balance melting pot there is an argument for not doing that. My experience would be very different open world - but I suspect I would get my a55 handed to me severely as Im a total open world pvp n00b.

    I can see a ranger could really cause pain in open world pvp - and the way you describe it I would defo get some lolz.

    In BG an opponent not prepared for a Ranger attack is quite often dead meat too (ie guys running back to their group in Ganak without realising Im attacking them etc... Its really the tools of our trade surprise. If however once the initial barrage does not kill you the ranger in BG is usually in big trouble :)

    Thats ok with current mechanics though - Im not saying Rangers need more love - its a fun class and is able to put out good results with decent groups.
  12. Milambers Active Member

    People see swashbucklers topping the parses in BGs and scream overpowered. However, I can log my BL with really bad gear, parse a lot less, yet still have a much larger IMPACT on the fight itself. Whereas on my swash, the fight would last forever with me just racking up the aoe damage, on my BL, every 40 seconds or so I can almost guarantee to spike one healer down, sometimes 2 or 3. The swash parses higher, but tell me, which class is actually stronger? The same goes for other T1 classes that might not top the parse, but can make a much larger impact if played right.
  13. Pippin Active Member

    We are not screaming... in fact I did not start a thread asking for a nerf (which I did for zerkers and mystics) - Im just replying to Del's thread.

    Seen plenty of Swashies getting highoverall dmg and seriously good kills too.

    BL's are getting significant reduction on spike dps on the 26th as they should - right now its the only class that can burn through healers like candy with spike dps thats off the chart 20-30k x6 plus procs plus auto + pet in rapid succession.
  14. Milambers Active Member

    Did I quote you?
  15. Pippin Active Member

    Nope - hence I said "We" are not screaming and not "I" am not screaming.
  16. Milambers Active Member

    We still implies it was partly directed at you, it wasn't. I know you're not screaming for nerfs.
  17. Pippin Active Member

    Ok Ill get back in my box :)
  18. Luanne Active Member

    Good dps should not be able to kill a good healer very quickly, in fact it should take quite a while. I've had delethen attack me for 5 minutes straight in a BG and I didn't go down on my healer, but you people are missing the point. The whole time he was attacking me I was unable to do anything else but keep myself alive, I couldn't heal other people aside from the group heal, and i couldn't move much. That is how you play the game , you lock down the heals, even though it might not die, and then you have your other dps in your group burn down their dps. if one good dps class can lock down 1 healer you just took that healer out of the battle pretty much. That is where good tanks come into play and good strategy. Honestly if both groups have equal dps/heals/tanks the fight SHOULD last a very long time and require strategy to win it like correct timing of cc's, dispelling, focus firing, etc. It doesn't feel like much of an accomplishment to run up to someone, or another group, and kill them in 3 seconds. I want to be sweating when I'm done fighting and feel like it was a battle not just press some keys, /yawn, they die, /shrug..

    While every class should have some chance of beating others 1v1, it's not going to be 50/50 since it is a group game, but it should be balanced enough so it's not 10/90 like it is now with some classes vs others.
    Davngr and Estred like this.