hieronymus wrote: See, I want a warrior, not a tank. I want a solo plate wearer who is like the warriors in history AKA a knight or berzerker. The guardian was supposed to be the low DPS tank that was all about holding aggro whilst the zerk was a fury warrior, a battlefield knight who fought offensively. In the zerker description, one is made to understand that the zerker is a melee monster in plate. I played WoW for years, and the zerker reminds me of the fury speced warrior. In WOW a fury warrior is poor tank, but a sweet DPS warrior. I know this isn't WOW, just saying the zerker seems like it was intended to fill such a role based upon the description. Not to mention it is nice to have variety of chouce in plate wearers, not just one type of gameplay, IMHO. Please keep in mind I am not a zerker fanboi. In fact outside of the trial play the fae I did back in '07 I have only been playing for a week now.
I really only care about being able to tank properly in all cases. A Berserker can still be a Berserker without a high parse imho. When people want DPS, they aren't going to invite a plate tank... even in the games current state where tanks are doing too much damage.
hieronymus wrote: Tanking on Live right now takes more skill and thought than anything that is on Test. Maximizing a tanks DPs/agro with survivability takes a great knowledge of the class. Stance dancing adds flavor and skill. Timing auto attacks takes more skill. All of these on Live right now take more skill to tank than it ever has in the past...mainly because you are doing all of this while worrying about surviving and keeping your group members alive. Skill in tanking on Live right now is far greater than it is on test.
Zahne@Mistmoore wrote: I cannot believe I am seeing a warlock complaining about fighter DPS. You do realize that Warlocks can out dps anybody right now. On singles they are real close to assassins and wizards and on multiples they just blow everybody away. 30k+ parses on long fights on raids is insane. I guess an offensive fighter doing half that dps could be viewed as threatening.
Bruener wrote: QFE - that and not all of the folks who roll a zerker even want to tank for raids. Some of us just want to solo faster than a snail.
Bruener wrote: qfe not sure why he would think that tanking on live is easymode versus what that is on test unless you count them breaking taunts to doing half what they are supposed to be doing. balancing gear, survivability and dps is a skill. now if you are a zerker always running around with a stacked group and in offensive then yes, that takes no skill. now go take a group with a couple illies, ranger, solo healer and a mythicalled wizard and see how easymode it is to run through a zone.
Lyger@Mistmoore wrote: quoting this QFE for more emphasis wizzy's pwn my face. Rangers and illy's can be pretty bad too. It doesnt help that the dirge i usually have doesnt like to run hate outside of raid. freakin dps *****. speaking of which. Am I the only one that has an issue being told i should do lower dps while tanking than a pure utility class like bards?? They earn 4 freakin raid spots because of how much utility they bring and they're still supposed dps higher than a fighter (even the off tank whos probably just picking up crap adds)
Well, I gotta' say, I dunno' about y'all. But as both a Berserker and pvp'er from day one, I find the class to be .. a wonderful expirience.. and shall Always remain as one. Can honestly say, I am not all to familiar with the 'PvE-Zerker', but with the current standing of this class as is(granted, Yes, it needs a few touches of some good love) it's a truly unique role to play within the pvp department of eq2, in my opinion - Easily capable of demolishing entire groups within seconds from their dps alone, let alone the others of your groups. Group vs group pvp, 90% of the time, my berserker is the top of the parse - only sometimes am I bested or very closely matched by a madman warlock. Basically, the Berserker class, in group(even solo) PvP anyways, is one of, if not the ultimate dps'er.. with the minute ability to tank as well, though no were near capable of sustaining aggro as effectively as say a Gaurd, or Pally, or Sk even. I merely stand in defense of this classes proclaimed short-comings in the reguards of pvp.. as I said, I am sure there are some significant problems for the Raid berserker. I know this much, as an instance running zerker, I rarely, RARELY have problems holding aggro, for even some of the toughest dps classes - or standing against my foe. So the point is, ... Bind-Wound>Turmoil>Juggernaut to Bloodshower>Intrusion>Stunningbellow>Insolence>Jeeringassault>Few-AE-autoattacks - and Everything will be Alright, because everyone who opposed ..just Died. ^__^ The Real point is though, ..to strike fear into those groups, Any foolish enough to stand within yours' wake. ... but if you don't pvp, ..well I don't know. ... I Don't know What the point is man. \: BERSERKER FOR LIFE!
/SIGH, easy mode tanking!!!!! I really wish this was the case, when not on my berserker, I play a warlock, and my zerk can come....almost within half of my warlocks DPS if I'm trying, really trying, on both accounts, if I really push on my warlock, which always means death, I push almost 10K average, but I dont do this because repait kits get expensive even if you make them yourself. Berserker, I am ALWAYS pushing as much DPS as I can possibly put out while cycling taunts, so I can hold aggro against a warlock or any other DPS that knows how to really put out. In a stacked group, Coercer, Dirge, Illy, assassin, Inquis, I still lose aggro to the coercer because of how much DPS they put out when they know how to play!!!! And yet, this is really an incredibly well stacked group to maximize on everything that a berserker can do. Anyone to say that tanking is easy mode on live does not know what its like to be a tank. From both sides of the coin, tank and uber DPS, warlock-dies alot, Zerk-usually holds aggro but heavy DPS rips regardless; in the end, tanking is far from easy mode and no matter how good you are, it is ultimately up to the DPS on whether or not your going to tank or just be a "figurehead" tank. And in the event theres a mythical assassin in your group....well, hope to god they feel like letting you tank, because its the only way you'll ever hold aggro; if they let you!!! Same with a warlock and most competent wizards/rogues/summoners, or any competent DPS class that can really maximize their damage output. And as for dirges-the kind of DPS they can put out now is stupid ridiculous, they are the EPITOME of a utility, as with a troubadour, and them being able to out DPS many other DPS classes is..well..just stupid.
there once was a time when guards and pallies did piss poor dps to be the defensive tanks, now all tanks do about the same dps but some have more survivability and some have more AE tools so instead of balancing the AAs we now have meshed classes pretty much close to all the same, in their infinite wisdom this somehow was a good idea without balancing encounters so offtanks aren't the continued redheaded stepchild except for a few fights. the other part is by having allowed tanks to all be in the grey area in similar dps then they have chosen to balance them out in 2 classes which is AE and single target. there will be no balance going forward unless somehow magically there is a difference put back into the game somewhere to give classes desirability, like physical resistance to an encounter(zerk) or magic resistance to an encounter(SK) for example. i much preferred it back in the day when you chose offensive vs defensive but those days are gone and no matter how much i warned of it you now basically have 4 flavors of the same thing with slight differences and still no balance in the 2 areas. about the first time i saw a guard pass me on the parse was when i knew things were gone in a direction that probably would cause something like we are seeing now. i still foresee issues with zerks being forced to tank defensively because of our hit ratios and low proccing hate, but what do i know.... nothing's changed and i doubt it will. most of the TSO tools are crap with perhaps the exception of enhance juggernaut(who needs it after the change in GU51 though, you won't be offensive or DPSing) and the 2 hit stoneskin, the rest is barely noticable and the resistance on the snaps will still be poor.
I'm quite content with everything that's on Live at the moment. Every class has some weaknesses and sterngths. But it's a bait and switch. They get us into this expansion based on some decent improvements, and then take it all away. Even this update as a whole I was OK with; I was even looking FORWARD to the idea of generating 10% less hate in OT situations as I could increase my DPS output. Heck, I died 4 times last night to VP trash because of hate issues since we have to DW to DPS post RoK (and since we lost our Mystic). So yeah, I was OK with that. And with the idea of tanking in Defensive Stance. I'm OK with pretty much everything about the paradigm shift, especially with the tweaks they've made here and there. What I'm not OK with is: *Warrior overall DPS should suffer more than the other 2 Classes (Brawlers only have -0.4 modifier, Crusaders have a much higher % from other sources than autoattack) *Berserkers have nowhere near the TPS abilities available to every other tank. One valid (IMO) complaint on Live is that so-called AE tanks can generate as much ST hate as ST tanks. So to combat this, on Test, so-called ST tanks can now generate MORE AE hate than AE tanks. Still ... that's OK. Cause it's on Test right? And they listen to feedback from Testers and make changes right? *All of this was called to their attention in January and the development response was to further reduce BOTH the taunts and DPS of Berserkers.
Gisallo@Lucan DLere wrote: There are challenging classes? This game is so easy the most challenging thing is dealing with annoying people in game.
Lethe5683 wrote: Well, if any Fighter is going to be challenging now, you're looking at it. My crappy Monk can generate the same ST hate my Mythical, fully Mastered Berserker can by using only her ST taunt and autoattack. Anyone who remains a Berserker has to squeeze blood from stone to hold a mob.
So it sounds like The End of the World is delayed for a looooong time. I suddenly feel cautiously optimistic.
There is no mention of the hate changes in Froechs post about GU51. So either it won't be part of GU51 and there are contrary to common believe still sane people at SOE. Or they think if they patch it in without mentioning noone notices it.
Hopefully someone comes to their senses and they actually listen to the players for a change. I've been a Berserker since the day this game went live and it's the only class I intend to play as my main. I've been my guild's MT since EoF including all of RoK when Guardians had a clear advantage. The proposed changes would completely neuter our class. I've been pretty vocal about it in my guild and some people have asked me why I'm so upset about the changes. My response is, if I wanted to play a Guardian I would've rolled one way back in November of '04. I have no desire to play a Guardian with fewer survival tools and a little more AE aggro. That's essentially what these changes would turn us into and that's just not a class I'm interested in playing.
Yeah, I was perhaps overreacting and basing my optimism on other comments than his. It's interesting that he says 51 will be delayed and lists the features in it without mentioning the Fighter changes. So some assume it will include said changes, some assume it will not.
they won't abandon the fighter revamp, it's been in the works for 5 months now and the fact that they are still working on it tells me they have a death grip on it to make it work somehow even though the changes can be quite simple if they actually just opened their ears instead of looking at their code with bloodshot eyes and plugs in their ears: get rid of the 5 second stance recast get rid of the auto attack damage penalty modifier stop ****ing nerfing AE classes AE hate! give us the AE hate we were putting out a few updates ago and let the guards keep the amount they got yes, SKs still need to be hit with the nerf bat. that or the other tanks need more which is unreasonable and adds the possibility of unbalancing things again get rid of the offensive stance detaunting, maybe i liked the idea at first but now i see it was a huge mistake. tanks should still have choices to tank in offensive or defensive whether they choose to or not. defensive tanking was much more difficult to do than offensive was, which is what caused tanks to be so DPS oriented and started all of this in the first place. make defensive tanking appealing again and you might see more tanks using it and less dps classes moan about the tank doing more dps than them due to buffs. if the tank can hold aggro in defensive, the healer won't need time compression, the tank won't need IA, yadda yadda, all the buffs can be spread around more. those are about as basic of points as you can get, sadly after 5 months no one could ever see that because they have continued to be blinded by the amount of effort they have put into this fighter revamp. i guarantee no tank would dislike the fighter revamp if they simply made defensive tanking just more of a viability and actually produce the aggro that it does on test right now, just bump offensive hate to what it is on live right now so you basically merge live and test with the best of both worlds. offensive tanking will still be achievable but not very desirable due to the now loss of hate transfers. it's just too bad such a simple fix will be overlooked and some overthoughtout complexified system put in place that ensures that next expansion will be that much harder to balance out...
