yzyh wrote: I don't think there's anything wrong with having 6 tank classes as long as you make sure those six tank classes can all tank close enough to equally, or offer something of value in exchange for lesser tanking ability. The problem is simply that they have chosen to make one tank the pinaccle of tanking and the others specialized in things that don't help raids, or in the case of the brawlers simply set up mechanics so that they become weaker and weaker as the level of the raid mob gets higher.
EQ2Luv wrote: Yeah sure could make a game with 6 balance tank but some of then would be kinda copy paste. I can see a strong tank with no utility, A tank betther vs caster, a tank specialised in off tanking (give him fast aggro tools and AoE taunts) and then I guess you could put 2x buffing utility tank (1 with DPS buff and 1 with defence buff). So its 5 tank. Now had a monk like tank (basialy it would have to be one of the 5 kidn of tank i previously listed but with high avoidance over mitigation). So it kinda a RP factor. Now it is 6tank. But since EQ2 don,t seems to have something like a tank vs caster its bring it down to 5tank. So now we have 6tank but only 24raid spot..... I am sorry but 24class wich 6of them are tanks for a 24raid slot event is just not going to work. And this is what we do see hapening now. monk still have raid invite bcuz they got some utility over tanking but lets say brawler would be in the same situation. Poeple would still don,t want to bring 2x bruiser in their raid
uhhh ok, i dont know about you, but I have 0 problems keeping up with scouts, and as for tanking for groups lol thats not a problem eather, your dps should have no problem holding aggro for single targets, as for multipul targets, spam ecounter taunt then our 3 aoe and u should be golden. atleast.... i am
darkax wrote: No body said we have problem in group encounters. We are talking about raid, especially high end raid encounters. To fix monk role in raid, it's can be done in different aspects. Revamp brawler tree and monk tree so that we can focus on either dps or tanking. Fix the raid itemization for monk. If monk role in raid is tanking, we should have more uncontested avoidance and mitigation boost on raid gear. Stop giving us contested avoidance since it's useless in tanking epic, especially orange epic. Fix our uncontested avoidance, it shouldn't be bound on our defensive stance. It's a major disadvantage for us comparing to plate tanks in tanking. Since plate tanks can have the same uncontested avoidance in any stance, we should have the same uncontested avoidance in any stance as well. Last, we are combatant, not bard. Our value in raid should be our dps or tanking capability rather than a buff bot. It's really sad that in some high end guilds, monk is already 2 boxed in raids.
Yea cmon SoE if you read these forums this is a desperate cry for staying loyal to you guys and to EQ since 1999 not that it matters but what do we have to do for you to change a lot for us cause this game is on the verge of being in my garbage can soon. No offense but please do something I am tired of be useless now.
After checking what trak drops, it really depressed a lot of high end brawlers. It's ridiculous that brawlers are so screwed in high end itemization. SoE gave plate tanks a shield with 22%+5% block. SoE gave scouts a earring proc 25% crit. What's the point to let brawler tank if there is any plate tanks in raid? What's the point to invite brawler as dpser when brawler dps is far behind true dpsers? What leaves to brawler then? Seriously, Dev, if our role is tank, give us ******* uncontested avoidance and mitigation rather than contested ****. Or at least, add brawler to scout only gear so that our dps won't be far behind to true dpsers.
de ja vu. i made a post almost exactly like this months ago. called for monks to become scouts. 1) avoidance will never work as a foundation for tanking. too unpredictable. been saying that since launch. 2) plate tanks are better avoidance tanks than monks anyway. shield, items, bleh 3) no less than 2 chain classes are equally good at tanking as monks when spec'd right, and they get shields 4) etc 5) etc 6) it would be easier to make monks a scout class than it would be to make them real tanks. think about it 7) utility my a$*. the raid buff is great. what else. a group deaggro ? i wanted it, but couldn't justify pulling the points from elsewhere. just not enough meat/potatoes. no one should have to re roll a toon just because they want to be an effective and desired raider
I sympathise with all you raiding monks out there, our uncontested avoidance just isn't up to the job... you won't find many people disputing that and what we get back in utility hardly makes us a "must have" class. I begin to worry though when raiding monks start to ask to be made something other than tanks though, as I've quite happily tanked heroic content on a PvP server for 7 (and now into an 8th) tier. I don't raid and don't really want to, and as such have been staying out of this debate. By all means keep up the pressure for our role in raids to be improved (buffs, debuffs and improved uncontested avoidance would be great) but please guys don't ask for something as dramatic as an archetype shift, lots of us are very happy being tanks.
Kamaala@Kithicor wrote: you are an idoit and you have no experience that qualifies you to post on this topic. BTW NEWS FLASH! THIS JUST IN.............. WE ARE IN RoK.............this isnt EoF...........So all your so called experience doesnt mean ****. the game drastically changed in RoK. If you raided in RoK you would know this. you have no leg to stand on. just stop posting about high end raiding in RoK as a monk till you reach it. you are hurting every monk in this forum by posting. I could tank every encounter on my bruiser in EoF i cannot do that on the same toon now as a monk in RoK, not even close. further the gap between all tanks widened to the point where guardians are so far out in front as MTs that you really wouldnt ever have a zerker mt or a bruiser or a monk or a pally/sk. my guild had a zerker mt for almost all of EoF and later had a guardian MT but that was after they had cleared i believe all content minus avatar of mischief with a zerker as a MT. EoF was a period where classes could and guilds allowed allowed non guardian classes to tank avatars. u wont find that in any top guild ww atm besides maybe tranq but even there they are just assuming agro for when the MT gets charmed not MTing the entire thing.... this isnt EoF this is RoK. keep your opinions to yourself till you start raiding in RoK. Once you gain that experience and still feel the way you do now, i will have no beef with ya ;p Denubis Blackburrow Saints of Norrath
Sullen@Nagafen wrote: You wanted the extra DPS (and tracking, evac & stealth) primarily for PvP purposes, not for raiding.
i know the devs probably wont ever see this.. but this seems like a good topic to post this. Our str line is screwed .. we all know that ..its a great solo line for a class that is already amazing at soloing. Our dps and tanking do not allow us to benefit the raid enough over other classes. Im not saying we are bad at either but its obvious there are other classes that are better. So i have an idea ive had floating around for a while. Why not take our STR line and do something with it that reduced our tanking ability to that of a pure dps class but increases our dps Potential to that of other dps classes. Something that is very important here is to balance us ...i pay my monthly fee like every other raider in this game .. why should i get shafted like this ? Discuss
My major problem with the class is the apparent philosophy that due to avoidance being superior to mitigation we have to be the worst of the tanks, but at the same time are not the best of the tank dps. That said I like my monk, he is a more than adequate tank for anything except for t8 and some t7 raid content. (Have tanked Gore, Crab, Naggy etc on him). I do not believe they will give us much more to make Monks attractive, for whatever reason. Maybe eq3 will put us back to being a really useful class, even if it's just at pulling mobs and dps as in eq1.
I don't think a monk is ever going to be uber dps. Once you get epics and mythicals the gap in dps only opens between brawlers and the top tier dps classes. Where you are on the dps scale in a group or raid depends on your role and the buffs on you. Like for like, brawlers push out more dps than other tanks (bruisers usually a shade more than us). We *can* tank any Tier 8 instances, and we *can* hold aggro and stay up in a T8 raid long enough for the MT to recover. I've not tried tanking T8 raid content, mainly because there's no point when it's far better for the guardian to do so with me buffing him. In groups or raids our buffs are [I cannot control my vocabulary] useful... a great avoidance buff, altruism (on tank or healer), spellcasting/melee haste and peel. If played well, we can make quite a difference. But we won't top the parses (unless we have buffs that should really be placed on someone who can benefit more!). I noticed in a group yesterday I was in def stance (no Iron Stance up) and I had 56% mit and 71% avoid. We sacrifice something for being a flexible class. I'm OK with that, but I can understand why others want the class to lean more to the tanking or dps extremes. I'd rather keep the flexibility.
every monk should play a plate tank to lvl 30, so they can see what a real tank is like. the difference is so easy to see. they should also play a scout, and experience real dps. lastly, they should play a healer, and solo heal thru chelsith/maidens with a plate tank, then a monk tank, and do your /feedback. monks are the champions of green mobs because those are the only mobs that respect our avoidance. i'm sick of this whole 'hybrid' argument too. it's dumb. when was it ever stated by anyone from soe, that monks were gonna suck at everything, because they were gonna be a special 'hybrid' class ? for the 59890th time, all fighters were supposed to be tanks. they all are too, except brawlers. reason ? there is NO WAY to 'fix' avoidance in such a way you would be a viable raid tank. yes it's a travesty that plate tanks have more uncontested avoidance than monks. this is proof positive that the devs just don't care about monks tbh. we have heal an fd and they think it just so neat that we don't need to be a real class. not a real tank class. not a real dps class. not a real utility class. not a real class. we already tank on par with scouts. we might as well dps with them. ps: may the fleas of a thousand camels infest the first person to post a reply saying: if you don't like it re-roll.
I can't DISAGREE more. A monk thats tanking specced with appropriate gear/AA/ and attitude can handle group and raid tanking better than a significant number of platetanks. I'm lvl 75/118 AA on Nagafen so can only talk about T7 raid content and T8 up to end of Fens quests + Ks castle. But so far ---> MT'd Nizara at lvl 70 when healers got sick of our lvl 72 paladin wiping us, Unrest? again MT'd at lvl 70, etc.... The BIG difference is that i picked a monk to TANK (we are a tank despite what the original poster and a few of you want I would suggest reading the class description BEFORE picking a class next time.....) I DON'T tank the same way as my Zerker ---> but through practice and trial and error pretty much have optimised my ability to pull, hold agro (including AOE), survive spike dmg, handle adds, etc. A monk that *knows* the zone and understands and has practiced MTing and RTing from lvl 10 does pretty well and my dps is not too shabby!!
Grondak@Nagafen wrote: Alright, so you spent a lot of time learning how to do a good enough job on your monk character, and are able to tank t7 content. That's great. Bad news is... You're going to get in trouble in t8 raid content. Especially high end t8 (which is to say VP), if you ever make it there. What's more is, as much as I'm happy for you being able to tank Karnor's Castle and stuff from the last expansion, I was able to tank Unrest back in t7 while specced for DPS as well. It wasn't always a clean run, but we got it done. The problem was, I was raid geared and a merely decently geared plate tank who had a clue about what he was doing would do better any day, regardless of spec (also, I should note that Unrest actually, as a zone, lends itself well to avoidance based tanking. Try Castle Mistmoore). Would this be different if I had specced for tanking? Oh, wait... It's practically the same AA setup. I guess not by much, and the margin was huge to begin with. As for suggesting reading the class descriptions, that's fairly ignorant. The descriptions nowadays, while all good and dandy, are hardly accurate. Also, exactly what t7 raid content did you tank? Finally, your argument boils down to: If I take care to do things right, I can outdo the plate tanks who suck at what they're supposed to do. Hence, I am uber. This is an interesting argument in and of itself... If you're a dedicated a serious player, why do you need to compare yourself to the "signifigant number of platetanks" who don't know what they're doing? Because you get your monkly behind solidly kicked when comparing yourself to the plate tanks who do know what they're doing? You essentially agree with the OP here, then, except that you think the state of affairs is just fine, which, while I don't understand it, I suppose is an opinion.
Well here goes.... It has been awhile since I have posted on the boards, and for the most part just read them, but thought I would post on this topic as there seems to be some misunderstandings with regards to monks, bruisers fall inot the same catergory but I can't speak as knowledgeable about them as I play a monk. The monk community for a long time as been trying to get certian issues addressed, without a whole lot of success. As a community we have our own issues, some want us to be a dps class and some want us to be a tank class, as it stands right now we do both somewhat ok but that is the problem with brawler class. We are the jack of all trades and master of none, there for there will always be a class or three that does things better then us. So in raids and groups situations we are not the most desireable choice. So lets take a look at where the brawler/monk falls in. Tanking - All other tanks have more mit, Guards and Zerkers can have just as high avoidence and souts can have as high avoidence. ( aren't brawlers THE avoidence tanks? ) Aggro management on single mobs is pretty reliable, but more then one group we are out as we don't have any out of group taunts. Monks do have temp mit buffs which can raise our mit a bit, however there is a downfall, one buff roots us in place, and the other stuns us, and to me that doesn't seem that great as you have to be able to move and peel mobs off other people at a moments notice. We do have Tsunami which is a very nice tool, and can allow healers to catch up in heals. Here is the biggest thing that we face as tanks, SPIKE damage, it is a lot less stressfull on the healers when the spike damage is not as bad. DPS - Hands down these classes are better at dps, ranger, swashy, brigand, assisin (spelling and too lazy to look it up lol ) wizard, warlock, conj necro. Zerkers and Guards put out more dps then monks. a few big problems with Dps for monks right now is we are suppose to be tier 3 dps however a well played monk can reach tier 2 sometimes. DF is pretty much worhtless, there are very few herioc mobs that this is used on (raid wise, group wise it is very usefull) in a raid and if used on an epic I hit from 6k to 8k but I am stifled for 10 seconds, I would do more damage with CA's and autoattack then using it. Our AA trees are limited, in the brawler line the str line is pretty much useless once you get a legendary weapon or above at any level. In order for use to benefit from this line we have to be weaponless, We only have 3 endline abilities in our monk tree and I think this is the lowest endline for any class out there. Buffs - haste and spell haste. Any troub or dirge will offer more and better buffs same with any enchanter, ever fighter has a raid wide buff you just have to figure out which one you preferr as one is no better then the other. So let me sum this all up! We are not the best tanks out there, as others can avoid tank just as well ( avoidnence is broken). We are not the most desireable for DPS or BUFFS. Groups and raids are built to win with ease and speed, so it only makes sense to take classes which will aid in that. Before I get the automatic you should just reroll response, I don't think that is a viable option for most as they have put lots of time into a class, and to get to a your current level would just be a time sink, in my case it would be going all the way to lvl 80 max AA and vp flagged I don't see that as feesible. I know that every class has its issues but these are some of the ones facing monks. So I think what we are asking for is some clarification from SOE in regards to monks. I have seen a lot of monks post on these issues, over and over again. the issues the same the names are different. I can only wonder if some of the same people are still around or have gotten frustrated and left the class or even the game.
But has our lot really changed that much in the past 12-18 months, or even longer? This tank vs dps discussion seems to have been running forever, without sign of any conclusion. If the AA options let you focus one way or the other more it would probably help (rather than each AA having a bit of everything), but monks and bruisers seem to have been neither here nor there for a long time. It's not like it's any big surprise any more, sadly. I'm enjoying my monk a lot, but I can see why so many people aren't. But what do we realistically think SOE can or would do?
alot of really good suggestions have been made. i don't care one way or the other. tank or dps. realistically it would be easier to make monks a dps class. like it's been mentioned so many time, we tank like scouts, so we may as well dps like them. the ppl that post for changes here like the monk class. i myself, just want to be able to really play mine. getting passed over for groups because they need a real tank, or a real dps, is just old. and raiding, wow. maybe you'lll get lucky and be the 'token monk' for your haste buff, but there is no reason at all to have more than 1. altruism spec the monk and call it good. if you need another tank, get a plate tank. if you need more dps, get a dps class
