How to Talk to Developers!

Discussion in 'Tips, Tricks, FAQs, and New Player Discussion' started by Vulnere, Jan 3, 2018.

  1. Vulnere Active Member

    I don't claim to be an expert on this subject.. but I'm at least partly fluent, as I have Asperger's Syndrome (a lot of Developers would tend to have "Sheldon Syndrome" like me) and have worked as a principle systems engineer/security engineer/network engineer for 28 years now.. and I've done a bit of coding with visual basic and pascal, many years ago. Also did 7 years as a nuclear engineer, but that's aside from the point.

    I can't speak for "developers", nor can I speak for "people", but I would like to point out a couple insights, that might be helpful on both sides of the aisle, or at least provide a chance for humor and banter.

    Code slinging monkeys (yes, I love you too) have an overwhelming job.. in my experience, most code is not well documented, even if you use a development framework and/or code repository. People come and people go...and sometimes leave a needle in a haystack.

    The mindset of a developer is likely a fair bit different than that of a player.. it would have to be..they have to bury their heads in millions of lines of code, and it's their job to speak "tell a computer what to do" as their first language, and human being as a second language.. at least if they burn the midnight oil for enough years it develops this way.

    I'd say that a developer wants to hear about software bugs much more than the whining of a player who wants something they will probably never get... you can't please everyone.

    Here are some useful skills that iv'e learned in IT over the years:

    1) Speak with data, not emotion.
    2) Give specific examples, not broad and generally unfounded generalities.
    3) Try not to take things personally.
    4) "The Business or nonprofit" comes first (I work for a major university, so I had to add the latter).
    5) You may think that your personal world will end, if you don't get your way --- it won't.
    6) Sometimes "the organization" does things horribly wrong, no matter how much you scream,
    and no matter how valid your points are --- but it's not really about you... it's about the "big picture".
    7) Don't launch personal attacks or straw man attacks --- speak with data.

    I'm sure that most developers just want to do their job, and probably enjoy the game.. and helping players for the most part. But get sick of taking body blows from the players, quite frequently.

    Now, when it comes to players.. and I'm one too...

    I played EQ1 near launch and all that.. and love this game.. I've loved various games.. but EQ1/2 the most so far.

    There are a variety of player mindsets.. but i'd imagine they include some of the following elements:

    1) The challenge of solving puzzles and beating tough bosses.
    2) Having your character be "bad to the bone".
    3) Making friends with other gamers.
    4) Escaping from the cold, cruel world for hours on end.
    5) To relax.

    Etc. Etc.
    Do you notice a huge difference between the two mindsets?

    One is more logical and one is more emotional.

    I recommend that you all consider my words and keep them in mind, before you blast some dev with emotion and do not "speak with data" as the first priority.

    I have noticed that Dev's will make modest, reasonable changes.. almost on the fly for players..I think they are hella nice guys and gals and that a little "speaking with data" and a tiny bit of honey, not vinegar, would be a more helpful approach.

    Just my 3 cents. Everyone has an opinion.. this is mine on this topic.
  2. Anhari Active Member

    As a former developer for a major health care concern, I applaud you for this post. Well thought out and on point. Now if only everyone (on both sides of the "fence") would head this we will get along so much more!
  3. Xillean Well-Known Member

    As a Game Developer (not for daybreak) I applaud your effort, and want to second that responding with data is always in your best interest when possible in getting things addressed or at least looked into.

    I admit sometimes emotion overrides my better senses but that's to expected of anyone who has played a game for many years especially when you cross into the decade plus area. Still your above points are solid advice.
  4. knine Well-Known Member



    The problem is, including beta, we have given numbers/data/stats. This group at this point in the game, really just do what they feel is right. There were changes put into the game upon release of the XPAC, that weren't even covered or tested in beta. They would update stuff in beta with no update (or rarely all of them) notes. We all have jobs and hopefully do our jobs to our fullest. Those of us that pay for the game are paying for their salaries and in the end expect good feedback and a good product. Example.. this is the primary forums of the game, however they can hardly take the time to log in and communicate with us here, but you can most of the time talk to or reach them on discord, (unofficial, but they have more power to boot,block,or ban you from their at their liking). As long as we're civil on here, they can't do that, because we follow guidelines. I get it, its not an easy job, especially with only a crew of 5, but at least listen to some feedback and be responsive.
    Uwkete-of-Crushbone and Xaeyla like this.
  5. Zeddicious Well-Known Member

    Oh you sweet summer child.
  6. Occam Well-Known Member

    Just the opposite. The "summer child" is the one who thinks they can get their way by throwing a tantrum. OP is giving tactical advice as someone who's been in the trenches.
  7. knine Well-Known Member



    Hardly lol.. but that's okay for you to think that way.. everyone is entitled to their opinion :) I actually stated facts.. most data can be found on Discord (which is an unofficial forum). Most people get updates there before it even hits the actual REAL forums. Just saying cupcake :)
    Zeddicious likes this.
  8. Cheallaigh Well-Known Member

    most data goes to the vacuum of discord and never leaves, which is part of the player frustration. i like you points, i've been involved in game design off and on for the last 20 years(i'm like Ttobey and make things pretty). code is spagetti, especially for an older game, patches on patches etc... and i get that. the problem is, while we can support issues with data, be concise etc, and still be ignored.

    right now there is an issue with the FG bonemire timeline and a mob that is borked, so the timeline cannot be completed since launch of KoS, except for a few hours on maint days(it fixes him for a day or so). a guildmate before xmas(one of many who sent in petitions i'm sure) tried for days to get the mob fixed, got responses that made me say "wtf?!"(one was to the effect the mob was tired from being over used). it's a timeline quest that effects an entire server, so yep, people are getting unhappy.

    lack of communication is not coming from the player side.
  9. Dolgrin Active Member

    [IMG]

    It is important, to know how software development works.
    Uwkete-of-Crushbone likes this.
  10. garcia Member



    most of us know how software works the fact is I don't think some of the daybreak staff know how software works and there is no reply that's going to change my mind about that facts or facts
  11. Kittybock Well-Known Member

    I've had a fairly positive experience, when I've asked the Dev Team a question on Discord, Forums or what not.

    That said, my toolbox relies heavily on tools learned in Technical Sales: Make your request or suggestion wallet relevant! The game is a business, while there are stats and aesthetic items that need review, I try to parse my questions & requests based on: Would this make someone walk away from the game? Is this enjoyable? Overall, would this make someone open/ close their wallet?
  12. garcia Member



    it not how we talk to them its all bout there respond to us
    I PUT IN A PETITION IS WHAT I SAID LOL
    I WAS IN THE PLANE OF DISEASE PUBLIC QUEST TODAY 12/22/2017 AT 5:00 EST I WAS FIGHTING EVERYTHING WENT WELL THE PQ ENDED I HAVE 5 MINS TO CLAIM REWARD AND I HAILED DR. ARCANE AND HE WILL NOT GIVE ME MY REWARD LOL

    BEFORE EVEN DAYBREAK REPLIED THEY PUT IT
    Status Solved

    THEY REPLIED
    Maria
    Friday at 18:22
    Greetings Cilib,

    This is GM Torchwick here to assist you. We will send this up from our end, but we will need for you to post to the issue tracker if you have not done so already. The issue tracker can be found here:
    https://dgcissuetracker.com/secure/Dashboard.jspa
    .

    Unfortunately, we are unable to grant rewards for Public Quests. However, we're hoping the Devs will have this fixed as soon as possible. If you have any other questions or concerns, please let us know.

    this is not true they can give me the currency that's what they did the last time this happened

    then I'm suspended lol

  13. Arclite Well-Known Member

    Just remember one key point. Most of the resentment of the game's current state is directed at the developers because they are the most visible be it on discord or the forums. Sometimes, people are way out of line and there is no reason to be as such. You can devise another list for the type of people. Some are civil and some are not etc.

    However, we need to remember that we are now dealing with a company who's forte is not developing MMOrpg's but rather its an offshoot of an investment publisher. Their primary interest in the game is directly related to how they can make it into an economically feasible franchise. The developers sadly have to comply with the agenda and have to bear the brunt of community backlash. While from a consumer standpoint, some points raised are genuinely of concern and are for the betterment of the game, others may not be too necessary and/or help much.

    In short, developers (just like any human being) should be respected and acknowledged for their work. Conversely, it is also imperative that the community gives valuable feedback which they listen to as well. Of course, there is only so much you can listen to in a development cycle but key areas where players are clearly being hard done by requires thicker skin to deal with.

    The latter, as of the recent past, has not been dealt with properly in my view.
  14. Vulnere Active Member

    I don't think anyone can logically deny that the following is true:

    1) The game is "dying" slowly. (a lot of MMO's are these days.. it's not uncommon).

    2) One might make the point that being owned by an investment group, it's probably
    valid to say that extracting cash is by far the primary objective.

    3) Developers are probably understaffed by 80% or some such horrible number.

    But all that said.. none of that invalidates the points I made. Not seeing and accepting
    the big picture (you have no choice), taking things personally that cannot be changed..
    blasting dev's with emotion rather than trying to be helpful... etc. is NOT helpful.

    If you must "protest" and think that will get you somewhere.. maybe be a bit more like
    the British of former centuries? i.e. "By jove my good fellow, I am terribly put out to say
    and I do apologize most profusely.. we will be attempting to take your country from you
    now... but by the way.. I've got these lovely tea and crumpets here for you... and I do
    apologize so much you know."

    In other words, one can be quite confrontational, without damaging the relationship
    or simply blasting with emotion.

    If you blast someone with emotion, then they have the social/moral high ground, and
    can just shut down and not respond to you... they "have a right to be hurt" and stop
    talking to you.

    but if you don't blast with emotion and are factual and at least moderately pleasant..
    this "hurt/moral high ground silence thing" is not possible. Now mind you, they still
    might not respond, or respond the way you want.. but your communication will be
    much more likely to produce a positive result.

    My 4 cents.
  15. Cheallaigh Well-Known Member

    well after my guildmate petitioned, i ended up putting in one for the same bonemire timeline borked quest... 2 weeks after his and others, got the same friggen rote silly emoji response. despite being concise as to what the issue was, that it was affecting a timeline etc.
    Steelviper and Mizgamer62 like this.
  16. Steelviper Active Member

    And that is all there is to say about communication with the staff. At this time, personally if I see a bug which bothers me, I just /bug it in the game, no expecting any quick fixing. I might get fixed in 2 months, or it might (more likely) get fixed in 1-2 years. It might never get fixed, and that is the majority of case with countless bugs I've noticed over the years.

    I get the company is oriented about getting in money revenue, but if they want my money, they by far, very far, not doing a good job of encouraging me to spend more than absolutely necessary, on the game. There is no community spokesman to talk with players on the forum so we got to try for a, usually one-sided, communication with the developers, we get only the barebones of info on what things are been fixed with patches - and many things are changed in secret and sooner or later come out as a rather unpleasant surprise - usually in favor of players spending money on the changed thing instead of earning in-game. That just does not exactly leave a positive image of the people behind this game.
    Meneltel, Ceyllynn and Mizgamer62 like this.
  17. Uwkete-of-Crushbone Well-Known Member

    Or something, since the img didn't show up? :(

    And yeah, I do like the polite, civil, British way of handling messy situations; they can very often be terribly, terribly civilized about the whole thing (civilised? :D), even whilst handing your hindquarters to you verbally. ;->

    One catches more flies with honey than vinegar (and yeah, I know, there are vinegar flies out there; shush), and I too have been on the customer relations side, the customer service side, and the technical support side (that last over the phone; I swear by whatever you'd like that I'd sooner be a bag lady on Skid Row than to ever have to do that again), so I'd like to think I'm usually pretty nice about it, especially in a /petition...or at least apologize to them when I'm not and they've managed to solve my issue anyway. ;->

    Uwk
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  18. Bhayar Well-Known Member

    2) One might make the point that being owned by an investment group, it's probably
    valid to say that extracting cash is by far the primary objective.

    I had to laugh reading this statement. It implies that because ownership changed to an investment group, that now "making money" is the primary objective. I am not trying to insult anyone's intelligence, but if you think there's a single business entity (whether owned and operated by one person or employing hundreds of thousands of people) operating in the world throughout history whose primary objective is NOT making money, then you seriously misunderstand the very nature of business. Making money is a given. Businesses either survive by offering products people will spend money on or they fail because their product either doesn't meet a perceived need, the product is overpriced and I can buy it cheaper elsewhere or someone else is offering value for a similar or better product. That said, products evolve over time or they fail. More often than not, they fail because people are no longer willing to spend their money on a product that is deemed obsolete or the company simply fails to meet the expectations. History is filled with illustrations of this--go find a carriage maker or someone crafting buggy whips. The list is endless. And it's filled with people who simply couldn't see the future in front of them. "Horseless carriages will never replace the good old reliable horse." Should be easy in infer who was saying this.

    What we're talking about here is how both sides communicate with each other. If you think both sides are happy with some of the things going on, think again. There's a lot of frustration out there on both sides and it's showing up on forums, in the game, in Discord or anywhere else. That said, we all need to simply communicate effectively; by communicating effectively, I mean "lose the attitude." And that's a recommendation for both sides. State the problem and possible solutions with resorting to personally attacking an individual or group of people, i.e. "you devs." And the converse is true. As one disgruntled customer anecdote went describing a conversation between a customer and an arrogant company employee, the customer was spot on with the statement, "You seem to forget the relationship; I'm profit and you're overhead." Sometimes businesses (and by association, their employees) ignore a critical factor. Your existence is dependent on your customers believing your product has value. When that perception is significantly altered, your existence is on the short journey to extinction.
    I think if both sides got together over a dinner table and some beers, we'd both find we have a lot in common where the game is concerned. So let's have agreement neither side is probably happy with things and figure out a way that we can communicate effectively--and with respect--with each other. If you think insults, threats, arrogance are part of the solution, then you're part of the problem whether you're a customer or an employee.
  19. Uwkete-of-Crushbone Well-Known Member

    Once upon a time, an old college mate of mine and his wife (another old college mate) had gotten me into EQ1 (for about a month or less; I much prefer this game ;->) and later into EQ2. At the time, he was also an employee of SOE, and we got all the horror stories from the trenches from both sides, but at least he was coming from a gamer perspective first, and, while he knew much about programming and such, learned much of the specifics for SOE on the job (they did such things back then, did companies). It was very cool, having our own "in" for suggestions, bugs that we as players caught but apparently even QC didn't, etc. He was able to present our concerns to the Powers in such a way that spoke Data-ese at them, but from a gamer perspective as well. You have me to thank for folks with slower, older computers not having their lowbee toons drown trying to get to The Caves near Qeynos. ;->

    Uwk
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