Honest conversation about Enchanters...

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Jrox, Jul 1, 2020.

  1. Jrox Well-Known Member

    Dear DarkPaw / Dev Team,

    This is not a crying session. I want to point out some observations, offer some constructive feedback and leave you with a few simple questions.


    Coercers went first, then Illy's shortly after. The coercer had a pet that was amazingly fun and maybe needed a bit of toning back but was just nerfed into the dirt. So, some of the best coercers in the game betrayed to Illy to try and have fun as enchanters. Then you took the Illy's toy and nerfed them into the dirt. Neither class is any fun right now. If you are in a group, you are there to cast three spells all based around power feed.

    For upper tier groups, they don't need you at all anymore because a Beastlord and Troub who can Parse their ***** off can also feed power where needed in the Challenge and Expert fights where DPS is king. Troubs and Dirges are out parsing Illy's and Coercers by a mile when equal talent and equal gear are side by side in a grp. That in my opinion is not how it is supposed to be. I am even seeing healers just destroy Enchanters on the parse. Something that really shouldn't be happening imho.


    Our team raids three nights a week for three hours at a stint. Before I found myself fighting on the parser for the T2 spots, trying to look good and occasionally on just the right fight under the most perfect setting creeping on the heals of T1. This made raiding extremely exciting "For Me". In my experience as an enchanter, until now that is how it has always been, again "For Me". Now it is a total snooze fest. It doesn't matter what I do I can not break 20bil on Seru Lord Commander (Challenge Mode). All the DPS and Utility classes are up 30Bil plus except for the Enchanter. We are 10Bil behind and really provide less utility than Bards. I feel like we should at least be with them in the fight.


    I know class balance is something you all are working towards. I hope that this enchanter debacle is something that is a big part of that with as bad as it has gotten. With all that is on your plate...

    1. Is there any chance at all you could take a look at the Enchanters earlier and make any kind of small changes just to make it enjoyable somewhat until the real fixes get here?

    If this is a possibility...
    2. Is there anything myself or the enchanter community can do to help as far as testing or additional more detailed feedback we can offer in assistance to this end?

    Here's to hoping you all will consider this plea for assistance with our classes.

  2. Observing Active Member

    What is the DPS difference between an ability doublecast spec that you seem to have and a flurry spec in high end raid encounter?
  3. Jrox Well-Known Member

    I have both and it depends on the fight. If I am ranged I use the ABDC, if I am on the mob, within 4m or closer, I will go to the flurry set. It is completely situational. In a tight quarter fight the Flurry right now is king. However the new ethereals are making me curious as to how that might change. Potency takes another giant leap with this new gear. CB takes a major jump as well and none of it has flurry that I have seen. So it could get to where ABDC is the complete King again.

    Hope that answers your question.
    parissa likes this.
  4. Udonn Active Member

    I'll trade Illusionary Allies for a group cast prismatic chaos rune!
    parissa and Jrox like this.
  5. Jrox Well-Known Member

    ^^^ This!

    Illusionary Allies has got to be the biggest waste of space since the class emerged from the depths. That spell has never been worth a fart...

    I thought we were going to get a new toy when I read that stuff about Doppelganger, but that never actually panned out either. This could have been a nice thing to have since they took the cloak. May have made it all a moot point if it worked.
    parissa likes this.
  6. Bentenn Well-Known Member

    You choose Seru challenge where you have to range the entire fight and scouts can in be close as the mob to compare dps to?? you said that flurry and auto attack is king already so no comparison since u range the entire thing. When u can be in flurrying and mimicking the right target there no reason u can't still be in T2 range, where a chanter should be.. support..
  7. Jrox Well-Known Member

    lol, You stalking me bruh?
  8. Jrox Well-Known Member

    So, are you an Illy, and do you fight Seru Lord Commander Challenge at ranged for the fight? (I don't)

    Do you know where I am on the parse? Do you know what our raid is doing for dps? Do I flurry? Do I ADC? What class do you play? Do you have a class even, are you actually playing the game? (Really mean stalking comment deleted) Not sure how much your opinion matters if you don't main and raid an Illy as you really can't speak to the class if you don't. If you do, (Because I don't know you or what you play), you clearly are happy to settle for whatever you get. If that's the case, good for you. Simply stated, go back to being mediocre and leave this discussion for those hoping for a bit more out of their class.
  9. Bentenn Well-Known Member

    No, I play one of those bards doing 25-35 billion on Seru challenge.. well a while ago anyway as we haven't done it in a month, but my 2 illis always beat me /shrug, meaning they were above that 20 billion mark... Next time we go in, because we'll start farming for the contested drops soon, i'll grab a parse. I'm not happy to settle for anything i get, however, I know my place as a support class, being t2, t3 dps.. a dirge should never be on top of the parse just as an illi shouldn't be lol.. u know as well as I do that cloak made that class way overpowered, which if why they did away with the rune in the first place, but forgot the cloak.. both our illi had it and did parse t1 numbers, but when it was done it was done /shrug... not saying don't ask for tweaks, just don't ask to be overpowered and put into a category you shouldn't be and was never intended to be. Inquisitors are way overpowered atm as well and I would expect them to bite the bullet soon enough...BL's as you mentioned will soon be tweaked as well and we'll see less of those playing as the flavor of the month lol..
  10. Jrox Well-Known Member

    Is it because the dirge isn't doing as well that you call for all of these nerfs? I have come to accept the loss of the cloak and I have dropped into the depths of the T2's. It's quite abysmal. I want to compete. I never came close to our T1's even with the cloak. I was not even within 20 billion of the Beastly's, and the Swash's just ripped on AE fights. But competing with T2's, which is where enchanters should be, was always the goal. Maybe you feel like enchanters should be T3, not sure. But as long as I have played the class, Illy's have competed for T2 DPS and that goes back to before the rune and cloak even had been designed. If it hadn't been the case I most likely would have never picked it up. No one I know want's to play a class that doesn't parse well for what it was meant to be.

    Please stop calling for nerfs on any class. Not only the two you just called for, but any at all. Really bad form on your part. It's like a cancer with some people on these forums. You talk about how OP someone is or mention this or that class is to be tweaked is just another subtle way for you all to call for nerfs. Damn y'all need to just stop. I have never seen a game with such overwhelming jealousy and despise for other classes. Ask to have your own class boosted if you think you should do better.

    Please, I know there are those who are going to come in here and scream, "That's why we have over inflated stats now". That is not true. Know the facts before you start spewing that garbage. Over inflated stats are from poor development planning by the team that creates our beloved game. It has ZERO to do with people asking for the class to be brought inline with where they feel their class should be.

    Asking for another class to be toned down, tweaked or otherwise is just another way of calling for nerfs. Please end this madness in these forums. In my mind doing such should cost you the privilege of posting in the community forums. Why? Because you are by definition trying to take the enjoyment out of the game for someone rather than trying to create enjoyment for yourself. Unless your just the person who gets off on that, in which case you should be gone!
  11. Bentenn Well-Known Member

    Not once did I ever call for a nerf, shoot, I enjoyed our illis parsing like they did... made raids quicker lol... I'm not concerned with where the bard is.. I do alright and I feel the class does fine for what the intended role is.. I'm saying, I see a lot of complaints about taking the cloak away, about needing to boost dps of a support class to compete with T1 dps... thats what I'm talking about.. I never called for a nerf on BL's, I said, stand by for it to happen. Illis can still compete at t2 dps level, not saying you're not or have to try hard or whatever, as I can only see what our Illis do...I play with what was given to us.. also play a shaman and bleedthrough sux, but I've learned to deal with it, whereas, many other shaman still whine about it and say it needs to be fixed to be back to their glory days...I see we are both under the same premise that illis should be t2, so next time ours isn't playing his BL to be an extra healer for a flawless fight, i'll grab a parse and show you that they compete with t2..

    Again, re-read what I said.. I never called for a nerf on anyone and never will, but I'll always deal with what we're given and not ask to be put into competition with a place my class shouldn't be which is exactly what you were asking.. You wanted to be on the heels of T1 dps..because that made raiding extremely fun for you... not once did i say nerf enchanters or BL's for that matter..
  12. Jrox Well-Known Member


    Isn't T2 supposed to be on the heels of T1? Just a thought. Would love to see those parses. I do alright. I mean it's just boring now is all. Nothing to strive for anymore besides who can feed the most power now... OH JOY! :rolleyes:

    I do enjoy my beast lord I have had since Beast lords were introduced (hence I have the war boar). Only I didn't give him near the love he gets now. And slowly but surely I will change classes. Right now I stay on the illy in raids for the team. But damned if I aint gonna yell from the top of that "Sound of Music" mountain and ask for boosts. Be happy or content if you will, and let me yell!! :cool:

    Oh and last thing, not saying you intended to call for nerf, but as I mentioned...

    is deemed a call for nerf as you point out that you believe them to be OP or the"flavor of the month". My 2cp
  13. Vanleeze New Member

    I agree, no nerf, just give templars some DPS, we would to parse like illy’s lol
    Jrox likes this.
  14. Jrox Well-Known Member

    Officially derailed. Awesome work. Peace, slackers.

    Guess what I feel like is a constructive post originally is just another post for you all to consider a crying post. If that's the state of mind we are all in with the game, so be it.
  15. Alarra Well-Known Member

    As a Coercer, I have found the same thing, I parse a fair bit lower than you Jrox.
    I find it hard to break the 15 bill mark, generally hovering around 10 bill while healers and tanks are higher, while T1 dps is parsing over 100 bill.
    I am pushing buttons, but they aren't doing as much as the next guy.

    In terms of the upcoming revamp some things I would like to see but not sure how feasible are,
    I would appreciate a look over the completely useless abilities such as the Memwipe ability(Amnesia), Charm, all the control effects that all heroic/raid named (and most trash) are immune to.
    Hate control spells need to be looked at as any tank worth their salt can hold agro all the time. Making it not so would make them mad, so maybe change the hate control spells to do something additional maybe?
    Dude and Jrox like this.
  16. Jrox Well-Known Member

    Yes! CC is a lost art in this game. Now teams run in and just bombard adds. But the problem with that is all the AE classes will cry they are broken if they can't just burn it all down. We are victims to their original cries of not being T1. Though they were the true T2 that felt like they should be T1. Writing in combat mechanics in EQ2 that would require crowd control is easy. Since it is in the core of the code already. But making all mobs immune to half the enchanters arsenal was one of the reasons we jumped up on the parser. Back when it all shifted it seemed strange.

    Mobs were made immune to CC in Raid zones. That started in SoF and our Mele Dmg went through the roof as enchanters. Then in DoV almost all mobs became immune to CC spells and hate got broken, at which point we got our first taste of the Coercer really strong charm pets and the Illy's PC got it's first taste of raid wide. It was almost like it was a trade off.

    Don't get me wrong I love to parse because it's something to do and achieve. Merely filling a mana pool and pushing buttons for the sake of pushing buttons is boring AF. However, if I could continue to push the numbers I do now and become useful again in the way of CC, well that would be different. Now you have something with substance that gives you more purpose in a group or raid.

    We will need to wait and see what the whole AA shake up is going to be. I listened to the Kander pod cast again this week and they answered some question. but the one thing that stuck out to me most was the continued conversation about AA revamps coming next xpack. I think it was Kander who actually admitted it felt like the were reinventing the wheel.

    I can't follow discord anymore because I said "stop sucking" so I have to get all that info second hand lol. You could probably see more of a conversation about whats coming there.
    Argosunited and Dude like this.
  17. Alarra Well-Known Member

    I agree CC should come back in some form, but the problem is is that the current game culture probably won't support it, most groups want to pull half the room or all adds up to the named and live while blowing them up. I recall in DoV with High Keep I could do a little bit of crowd control but because of the way the zone was structured not many people liked the zone at level.
    It is difficult to balance it so that zone rolling groups and chanters can have fun. Also ensuring that groups don't "require" a certain class to do a zone, but having it makes the zone easier to run.
    In AoM there was that zone which required the mob to be stifled and all the players were up in arms about being "required" to drag a chanter around for 1 mob.
    Jrox likes this.
  18. Jrox Well-Known Member

    That's funny. More than just chanters can stifle/stun. I don't mind not having the crowd control for everyone else enjoyment, just give me back my DPS so I can have fun too. Which is my whole point to all of this. Now I am hearing more and more about the AA revamp and I am hopeful this could coarse correct a lot of classes not just my favorite. I'm actually letting myself get excited about the revamp when I know based on history of changes around here I have a 20/80 shot of getting something that is meaningful or at all.

    Hopefully in some of the upcoming pod casts we will hear more information on the revamps. In that same breath of hope I hope we get to see it on test at least 90 days before they want to try and make it live. I would even be willing to wait on a late release of a new expansion to see this actually come to fruition. I would also wager 90% or more of the EQ population would feel the same for these impact changes.

    EQ2 in as rough condition as it is, with all of the P2W, is still by far the best MMO out there imho. The frustrating part is how good it really could be is right in front of everyone. I think the devs just need time to do a full write/test/implement without the worry of a November/December deadline. Push that $h!t to March/April for all I care. Lets get it right and have some good $h!t to talk about next season!

    Just my 2cp though...
    Snikkety likes this.
  19. Bhayar Well-Known Member

    I think you have a lot of good points being made. As far as an AA respec goes, I'm just going to say that as of now, I'm from the state of Missouri. Check back when the next xpac actually launches. My greatest fear atm is that there are so few people from DPG actually playing the game we play with the same constraints that it will be a difficult task of redesigning an AA respec when you really have no idea of how the class is played, much less what you think the class should be doing. Honestly, that would make for some very spirited conversation-class and AA respec.
    Breanna likes this.
  20. Jrox Well-Known Member

    I have said this in other threads and feel like it is something DBC/DP should consider... 5-10 of the top players from each class brought together to help discuss these revamps before they are set in stone and committed too would go a long ways in getting it right. Maybe they are doing it and already have real players they are discussing it with and just not saying anything to anyone.

    I have also considered in the past writing up some of my own thoughts as a suggestion to changes for the Illusionist class, but what good would it be considering I have no idea what the next iteration of combat for all classes will look like. In other words, how the trilogy will work or perform with the content that is laid out. I am sure they already have content in place and are starting to get ready for some form of testing. But revamping AA around current content rather than revamping for a long term plan on how the game will progress. Worrisome if that is the case. Hopefully the plan is thoughtful and well laid out.

    Here's to hoping for the best.
    Bhayar likes this.