Hmm, LU 24 looks like it will be..... interesting....

Discussion in 'Dirge' started by ARCHIVED-xOnaton1, May 10, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED-Sanju Guest

    You're a bard -- you ARE secondary to the rest of the group. That's pretty much the job description -- to make a group better (yes, even at the expense of your personal dps).

    Someone earlier asked if Eli's was equivalent to Luda's ... if Luda's is a short range (10m), moderate damage, single target spell with a 2 second cast time, then it is ... otherwise it's not. The 2s cast time and very short range really limit the effectiveness of this spell.
  2. ARCHIVED-Rijacki Guest

    *Nod* I think sticking us in with scouts was.. well.. because they didn't have anywhere else to stick us.. and it linked out Selo's to their pathfinding, gave us all track (bards did have track in EQ1, though not as good as rangers), and gave us evac (which is bloody useful), cheapshot (less required for us than other scouts), and positional attacks (but -far- fewer than other scouts). The one other thing bards don't have that all other scouts do.. poisons. Bards are the not-so-scouts but even less anything else class.

    Honestly, bards are as disparate to any other class and archetype almost as completely as beastlords are. While they could get away with not including beastlords (for many many many good reasons), I think the devs would have had a riot if they hadn't included bards in some way.
  3. ARCHIVED-Salmastryon Guest

    I have to disagree to this. Yeah, I think that doing whatever makes the group run better is the primary concern, but that is true for ever memeber of the group. I really don't see that is a Bard progative and I certainly don't see the bard as a slave to the group's will, that's just silly. Making a group better doesn't make you less than an equal to your other group mates. I can't think of a single class that doesn't have to modify its play style in a group, but that certainly doesn't mean you can't play with your own personal flair. I've been in groups where my set up was such to increase my own dps, I've also been in groups where an assasin has there hate transfer onme cause we had two assassins in the group and I was the only safe person to slap that on.

    Of course I could be misunderstanding what your saying...
  4. ARCHIVED-Priestbane Guest

    I don't claim to have the stranglehold on the right way to think about... well, anything!

    That said, you are saying that our own self buff isn't as powerful as other scouts' version of the same thing... because we have to drop a buff that our whole group gets benefit for instead of maintaining it? I don't see the problem here. Life is all about choices, and us dirges are making the choice to get that much more group buffing in. I realize and understand the frustration involved with having to drop that oh-so-sexy 150 INT and 130 AGI by not running our self buff in order to throw in another group buff... but no other scout even has *the option*.

    Swashie today says, "I'm not gonna run my self buff, in order to assist my whole group!". Sorry, doesn't happen! =)
    Now, that's not to say I wouldn't thoroughly enjoy having my self buff suddenly become concentration-free. I'm neither expecting nor needing, nor even really on the bandwagon indicating it's needed, though.
  5. ARCHIVED-Lordviperscorpian Guest

    Eli's equivalent spell in the dirge line is the lifetap. A short range spell with 10 sec recast, also has lifetap compenent. If they were to increase the dmg and take out the lifetap, move recast down to 5 sec....id take it. Id take it in a heart beat.
  6. ARCHIVED-Priestbane Guest

    No... the Eli's line is simply a fast casting nuke. The troubador equivalent of a lifetap is their power tap line, starting with Swindle Essence. Troubadors receive the Eli's nuke line at the same time Dirges get a Garsin's, fear spell.

    That's angry for ya! =)

    EDIT: I should say fast refreshing. Its cast time is 2 seconds, which is pretty long.
    Message Edited by Godstalk on 06-05-2006 10:00 AM
  7. ARCHIVED-Lordviperscorpian Guest

    Hmmm i always thought our fear was equal to their mez. IT thats not the case i feel jiped =(
  8. ARCHIVED-Rijacki Guest

    The difference is that the swashy doesn't -ever- need to "cripple" himself (by dropping a self-buff which can add a significant amount to what he brings) in order to provide a buff for the group instead.

    I'm not expecting the dirge self-buff (or the troub equivalent) to become concentration free, but... until it is, I will consider it a boon to cast when I, or a group, don't need the other buffs more.. and as such, I won't count on it's benefits at all.

    On the subject of self-buffs for concentration. if I remember rightly, there was a sorcerer self-buff which cost contentration pre-LU#13 which no longer does. It also only increases the sorcerer's stats (or is it the ward one.. gads.. haven't been playing Rijacki lately and it shows *sigh*) and does nothing to help the group. A wizard can fill up their concetration with buffs for the group members and -still- keep their own self buff running. If it's not "overpowering" for a wizard to have a self-buff which is concetration-less but still have group-related buffs which are, why is it "overpowering" for dirges?
  9. ARCHIVED-Priestbane Guest

    Not self buffing is not "crippling" ourself... it's dropping that *self* buff in favor of a *group* buff... which we *also* benefit from. Remember though... you HAVE the choice to use your loadout any way you feel! I *never* drop my self buff if I can get away with it... my power length > one more group buff in most (but not all) cases.

    With regards to comparing self buffs that are concentrationless to various other classes in completely different archetypes, I can only say we will get minimal mileage out of that line of thought. After all, we already have at least one concentration-free buff... runspeed. =P No other class has as many group buffs as we do that are as significantly impacting as ours are. I don't think of it as an overpowering that a Wizard can buff single members of their party costing a concentration per casting (for a little bit of damage add on melee swings), and retain their own self buff... while we can't have yet another concentration slot. Because the wizard spends a conc per person, after all.

    We could go round and round on this one, and because Wizards are not even remotely related it will be hard to pin down any "ah HAH!" situation where there is not some tradeoff of some flavor (we also can cast on the run... with most of our abilities. Wizards can't do that at all, ever!), so it's not very useful to the discussion.

    Anyway, something Whysprr said to me the other night is really hitting me on the head right now (and forgive me Whysprr if the point isn't like what you had intended to say; I'm extrapolating): we can continue to compare ourselves to what other classes do or get till the cows come home... but that isn't constructive; if you like that ability in another class, go play it. What we should be doing here is focusing on constructive means to address issues. Saying that other scouts can self buff and don't have concentration woes is not the issue. What is the issue is, can we do our job with our self buff taking concentration? I posit yes, but I welcome feedback indicating that I'm wrong! =)


    EDIT: Of course, the ultimate arbiter in the medium is SOE, and they seem to agree to disagree with me on some level; they ARE after all adding some new flavor to it.
    Message Edited by Godstalk on 06-05-2006 10:56 AM
  10. ARCHIVED-Salmastryon Guest

    I'm also sorta nuetral on the whole conctrate slot of the slef buff thing. Though I wouldn't complain if they did do that. But, I really like the addition of the proc to it. :D
  11. ARCHIVED-Icarii_Raven`Lyon Guest

    Sorry bout the Ludas/Elis thing...In that case, I've got no clue what Eli's is our equivilent of, but I'd really like a 5 sec refresh nuke :) I wouldn't want to give up either of our life taps though.

    Just basing on spell levels, our fear is = to their charm, and their mez is our rez (I do feel gyped there, i'd trade rez for mez in .000001 second).

    And just to restate, I do think troubs need a tweak, and I don't begrudge them getting one, I just don't think its all that fair that we don't get one too, as I feel we need one just as badly, we've just had to deal with our short comings for long enough to be used to it (no offense troubs).

    In closing, I really think our self buff should be concentrationless, honestly, just cause I want to use it and can't. Purely selfish reason. Dirges should be able to get somethign for us, after all, no one is entirely selfless.


    Edit for spelling and punctuation
    Message Edited by Icarii_Raven`Lyon on 06-05-2006 05:12 PM
  12. ARCHIVED-Danterus Guest

    I think we're slightly lower than where we should be in damage output, especially with the damage nerf to Lanet's coming soon.

    In my opinion, we have 3 skills that really need to be improved:

    Jael's Dreadful Deprivation -> At 337 STR and Master 1, this does 394 - 656 damage assuming both arrows hit. My auto attack does about 550. Why would I ever use this, even with the root to it when I can slow a mob to 100% (69% + 32%) with Verileen's and Daro's? The damage on this should be increased and/or it should be allowed to be casted on the run.

    Grievance -> At 337 STR and Master 1, this does 294 - 491 and heals us for 148. This skill needs the most improvement out of the 3 I listed. Considering I usually have 7k+ hp in groups, the 148 heal is about 2% of my health which is neglible. My auto attack does more damage than this. The damage and lifetap on this should be increased to match Wail of the Dead.

    Wail of the Dead -> At 367 INT and Adept 3, this does 380 - 633 and heals us for 187 - 312. I have no problems with the heal, but the damage is again lacking. Either increase range and allow us to move while casting it or increase the damage so it's actually useful. Again, this ability isn't worth using unless I need the little heal because the damage is less than what my auto attack does.

    If these abilities had their damaged increased by about 15-25%, it would increase our damage slightly and help us recover a bit from the Lanet's damage nerf.

    -Kall, 70 Dirge Permafrost
  13. ARCHIVED-Priestbane Guest

    No disagreement, but some perspective:
    Greivance is a level 57 art, literally the next upgrade we get upon a level-granting expansion. Due to the lack of art scaling now, that is essentially a t6 ability. In groups my lifetapping doesn't really make the difference... lifetaps are primarily solo/alt tanking tools for me.
    Jael's is also T6 (58?) and has been subpar since LU13 and doesn't look like it's going to be par after LU24, though its utility is definitely going up. It has a slight increase in damage output as well, on the order of 10%... but I won't be wasting two arrows and power on the damage its doing, I'll be using it for the control we get.
    Wail of the dead is the only one in there that is T7, and also top of T7 (70). I find that this art works just fine for soloing, which to my mind is its intended use, and covers about 5% (randomly of course) of my health, and grievance another 2%. 7% every 10 seconds while soloing is not inconsiderable. Combined with Daro's, and I'm often not coming out of even con fights with any damage, and I don't sweat green heroics (^^^) either. I have never in all my raiding won any raid loot. =(

    I have a question though: Aside from Jael's, which is just silly, I DON'T do more in autoattack than the numbers you listed, even when in group and working with a brigand. At 460 STR and using 51 damage rating weapons, I top end autoattack for a little more than 300 (each) every 1.6 seconds (less haste time), and average ~150. Again that's in groups, which doesn't seem to me to be the optimal lifetap usage... since I'm (typically) not tanking anyway. When soloing I'm doing average of ~100 (top end usually 220, unless fighting something with clara's and master strike, and under the effects of Bravo's... which is much more often these days) damage in that time frame (each), which still isn't comparing to ~500 average damage from Wail. Furthermore, I don't LOSE autoattack damage for using these... they are free (as in don't take up an autoattack swing to use, unlike, say, DAoC mechanics which make more sense but is another discussion entirely), and fast enough that they might delay another autoattack sequence by a short amount of time, but more than make up for it.

    So uh, the question is: what the heck weapons are you using? =)

    EDIT: I typically do upper end damage with Wail, as I always have Verlien's on the mob when using it.
    Message Edited by Godstalk on 06-06-2006 03:20 PM
  14. ARCHIVED-Fromingo Guest

    I'd rarely disagree with you but have to this time. Your analogies are flawed in that you equate helping your group with buffs. Lets take a brigand for example since I play one as well as a dirge. I can drop my dirge's self buff and add a group buff to help the group. Cool but would rather keep my self buff too. I can also drop some debuffs on the mob and these benefit the group too. They are somewhat noticable but the power costs of mainting most of them more than compensate for being able to use them because I use less CA's to conserve power especially on raid mobs. Now lets look at my Brigand. I can maintain my self buffs and stances while not having to drop anything to benefit the group. How do I benefit the group without buffing you say? I have debuffs and not just debuffs that are somewhat noticable like the dirge's I am talking debuffs many many times more powerful and instantly noticable when people start hitting for 50-100% more damage. Also I don't have to constantly dump power overtime into them and can maintain a steady stream of CA's and DPS.
    So to sum it up. Benefitiing the group can come from buffing, debuffing or DPS. Brigand does not have to sacrifice any self buffs or DPS to benefit the group. Dirge often has to sacrifice both DPS and self buffs to benefit the group. Swashbucklers have similar ways to benefit I am sure. Ranger's and Assassins benefit the group through incredible DPS and don't need to sacrifice any buffs to do it. Personally I am on the no bard self buff concentraion slot bandwagon. It's not balanced.
  15. ARCHIVED-Priestbane Guest

    Fromingo,
    Even Brigands have to make choices about what skills or abilities they are using... there's just less of a painful drawback in terms of DPS, I do agree. We have the option to put our own self buff on, or put MORE group buffs... not any group buffs.
    As for not balanced... I agree. But I agree in a way that would probably make most people unhappy, so I'll hold my peace there.

    It's ok though... if you manage to convince SOE to remove the conc cost of our self buff (or, possibly more likely, give us a different self buff that is concentrationless), I will cheer you (and most of the rest of the dirges here) the whole way, because I'll certainly take it! But I'm not lacking for option or even output. I can and do pull 600 DPS in groups. I can and do contribute to my raid. I can and do debuff an entire encounter (and while brigand debuffs are almost universally more effective on single target, we rule in linked offtanking scenarios), and I can and do keep my MT alive. I can and do joust to keep output going while I keep myself alive, and I can and do maintain my self buff through (almost) all of that.
    Balance is not about how one of our abilities compares to other scouts (because in this case, until LU24 ours was identical in form to other sout self buffs, we just have a lot more abilities that require concentration to maintain), but how we get our job done. We don't compare to brigand output... but nor are we meant to. Put me on the same raid/group as a brigand, and we will BOTH shine. But I do a hell of a lot for a group's health than a brigand ever will... and that's probably ok by both of us.
    I play with a brigand regularly, and love her to pieces. We both like our roles, and we both look on at the others abilities with envy... which is good.

    EDIT: And now I think I'm appearring argumentative, which is not my intent... so I will leave it at this. I understand that folks will disagree, and I even understand why! I just disagree with the precept, and like to yammer. I suppose if I didn't like the sound of my own (voice) to some degree or another I wouldn't be a bard... =)
    Message Edited by Godstalk on 06-08-2006 03:28 PM