hate positional increase on insolence with our mythical discussion

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-LygerT, Jul 27, 2008.

  1. ARCHIVED-Nembutal Guest

    Been sick... sorry for not dropping in my two cents earlier.
    Here are my opinions.
    1.) Thanks SOE for giving us positional hate.
    2.) SOE... positional hate is a problem with our class and not really just our mythical... that leaves non-mythical zerkers broken... and me broken in the next expansion if I have to give up my mythical. I would have preferred this to be a fix on my class.
    3.) Positional hate on an AE is cool because it solidifies us as an AoE tank.. however in a crowded area it makes us useless... I can't use any AE hardly at all in RE2 for instance.... and RE2 is where I have been having issues with hate because I can't 3 box in there so my dirge I usually tow around isn't with me.
    4.) I understand that it was put on insolance (aka insolent gibe to many of us) because of the re-use timer and the fact it was an existing taunt... and we are considered AE tanks... it was the easy fix and seemed logical. but it still doesn't account for the fact I can't hit that ability in quite a few areas in quite a few dungeons or raids.
    5.) If we are to be an AoE tank... which I am pretty sure is the path SOE is bent on... I would prefer the Positional aggro be moved to an encounter AE... unfortunately we don't have any on a long enough timer to justify a +5 position move... and a +1 position move doesn't really qualigy as a "OMG HIT IT NOW" ability... rescue doesn't do squat for me... so the same ability on another button would be just as useless. This makes me lean towards a new ability.. a beefed up encounter rescue... like a 10 min recycle green encounter icon with +3 positions and +2000 hate.
    6.) The casting time on open wounds does not really make me want this as our positional hate ability... it takes too long to cast... and when I do use it I use it PRIOR to shooting my bow to get the mob... a positional hate button should be near insta-cast. A long casting time positional hate means by the time you hit the button the mob is out of range killing all the mages... you get there and hit the button again but all the mages are dead and now it's running to the scouts... and out of range again. It would bring use back to this CA I agree but it is not the ideal pick.
    7.) Another cool solution to this would be rather than going the path of the AoE... the path of the "knock down" I am not sure how many knock downs other classes have... but I have 3... my circular AE, my shield bash, and my ogre ability. If I was to have a short duration epic useable stun with a +5 hate modifier on a 10 or 15 minute timer... I would be very very happy. Here is why... when I get aggro... I need time for the healers to realize what has happened... plus I would love the time to pop adrenaline... so even a 1 second stun... would buy me A LOT of survivability. Since I think knock downs is part of what a zerker is to ME... I feel it keeps the flavor to the class just as much as an AoE does. Since SOE feels that Guards will always be the best tank... I feel that giving time for the healers to adjust to healing us after we hit our positional taunt (via a knock down) is completely within reason. BUT IT HAS TO BE USEABLE ON EPICS.
    8.) Positional aggro via AA tree is not something I really want to see... although it's better than positional aggro on mythical... gut roar is useless... so I agree that's a good pick if it was to be done... BUT... should someone without max AA really be forced to go down a particular line to make themselves viable? I personally don't think so... the tree is supposed to be balanced (although it's not) and adding a positional aggro ability to the tree suddenly makes that line MANDATORY... which IMHO breaks the intent of the system.
    9.) Another issue not related to positional hate I would like to bring up is "tank support" I would like shield bash to do more than just a graphical knock down on epics... if the Guardian says "KEEP ME UP! HELP" I would love to just knock the mob down... buy him say 1/2 of a second via a stun like it does on heroics... even if it gives immunity to epics for 5 minutes to my next shield bash (can't interfer with positional aggro knock down from #7 ) This would make me feel more like I am tank support and less like I am DPS... but at the same time it doesn't really hurt our DPS so the DPS zerks can't cry about it.
    10.) We still didn't get a bump to survivability like guards did on thier mythical... I think the positional hate should be moved to our standard CA's as other tanks got thiers... and that our survivability should be added to our mythical like guards got thiers. This way no matter how deep into charector progression a guard and zerk are.. if they are at the same point... they are closer to equals.
    Anyway... I want to stress point #1 again... thanks SOE for at least trying... and it's certainly better than nothing... but if you read this post carefully I am sure you will understand where I am coming from. I am still existed about the change but just think it was not thought out as well as a veteran zerker would have done.
    Thanks for finally listening,
    Skoshi
  2. ARCHIVED-LygerT Guest

    now has anyone changed their opinion after using the mythical vs posting before the change went live? just want to make sure i'm not getting mixed results.
  3. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

    No, I can hardly think of any situation where this has helped me and yesterday it almost killed me when I tried picking up the add at Druushk after the fear and got aggro from Druushk, although I was pretty far away from him. Works just as I expected
  4. ARCHIVED-Zhonata Guest

    Bremer wrote:
    LOL.
    /Ignore
    I for 1 am loving the change GREAT JOB DEV'S. I have purposly been trying to gank aggro and have yet to pull aggro off the MT on either Nexona or Druusk while DPSing the adds and Guess What NO DICE. OF course on Druushk and Nexona I dont dps the MT MOB as Druushk is a Ranged fight and Nexona can only have a set amount of DPS on her at any given time. If you are are pulling aggro On Druushk and you are OT/DPS then you need to fire your DPS and if your MT you shouldnt be trying picking up adds in the first place. Nexona I am in the OT grp and I am on Shiny Adds and Drake duty so if you gank aggro on her then again FIRE your dps cause they suck. Before you says anything else I parse in the top 5 of my raid force on the rest of the melee encounter in VP and yes still only manage to pull aggro when I want to using this abilty.
    The addition of hate postion has been a god send for me and I have nothing but praise for it. The only time I have found myself in trouble was using it in RE2 and pulling 2 rooms omw to Gaser, but my healers rock and we just mowed through them. This is one of the best things to happen to the Zerker since the addition of Open Wounds back in DOF. IMO It is by far one of the Best Hate postion tools in this game. Even using Reinforcement after Dieing our Guardian has had trouble grabing aggro off me because of Insolence's Proc and our class massive ability to maintain aggro on a mob, I can sit there and just Auto Attack the mob and watch aggro ping back and forth between us for several secounds before it stablizes.
    I still believe we need to have a standard hate postion tool on a longer recast perhaps. While this abilty works great for AOE aggro control and gaining aggro while DPS'ing if the MT goes down and we have recently died or just came into the fight it simply isnt enough to assure snap aggro 100% of the time. I personally would like to see another Standard Snap aggro abilty or in this case I would settle for an AA line ability that Converts Rescue into a 12+ postion Snap aggro ability on its current timer. With Insolence how it is I currently only have to use rescue when i have recently Died to try to climb the ladder a little bit quicker and making it our Zero To hero abilty would work perfectly in my book.
    This Abilty is Working EXACTLY how I predict it would. I guess some people need to read the Berserker Operational Manual.
  5. ARCHIVED-Zhonata Guest

    PS.
    Aeralik Is there anyways we can get Blood Regeneration to grey out when active just like the rest of our maintained Buffs and can we also get that cool Green text on the +5 hate postions for Insolence to make it easier to admire.
    Please and Thank You.
  6. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

    You sound as if the Mythical granted you Insolence and you didn't had it before.
  7. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

    Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:
    Just for fun I'll sum up your arguments:

    You say that our "snap aggro" is great, because you couldn't snap aggro with it when trying, that it is great because there is a proc on Insolence that was there before and because you can pull rooms with it, what you also could before.
    Very good arguments, but with the learn2play argument you convinced everyone how great this effect is.
  8. ARCHIVED-Zhonata Guest

    The Mythical Change makes Insolence fullfill its function more efficently. End of Story.
  9. ARCHIVED-Zhonata Guest

    Bremer wrote:
    Just for fun I'll Highlight the part you clearly decided to leave out in your summarization. At no point did I say our snap aggro was GREAT, in fact I commented saying we needed something more..... but I can live with what we have im not greedy.
    The point of this thread is to discuss the Change to Insolence the purpose of RE2 was to show an instance where Insolence has always been an issue and you missed the point because that was the point... DOH ! Just like the point of Trying to pull aggro on these mobs you are saying make Insolence Situational say that you are either doing something silly or wrong or both. It is very clear that if you are DPS'ing the MT mob and use Insolence then you are going to gank aggro, Thanks God thats the point, but if you are not DPS'ing the MT mob the hate increase in a raid should not be enough to snatch aggro.
    The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Mythical Change. Not to discuss the need for a +24 hate postion taunt. If you have a problem with our over all snap aggro, again like I said we needs 0-hero snapp aggro, then make a new thread.
  10. ARCHIVED-Endorplasmic Guest

    Alright I've had time to hit every zone and some avatars with the change.

    In short the bad FAR FAR FAR outweighs the good.

    Good things were Avatar of Storms picking up the insane amount of adds and in VP when the MT got booted off the top bridge with the drakes on the way to Ekron (I hit Insolence as he was below the bridge and pulled the mobs through the bottom of the bridge).

    Sadly, that's it...

    This change doesn't help snap agro in the least. +5 hate is NOTHING when the MT wipes on a mob double attacking on pull and it needs to be picked up. (I think I had one ray of hope once where I had insolence and rescue up and yah, I wasn't the top of the hate list after +8 in a 24 person raid... go figure)

    It's garbage on avatars where the adds are close to the name (War for example).

    Where we fight Byzola is suicide having it on the hotbar.

    Basically it works when you don't want it to and doesn't when you do. IMO this change was a bust and something else needs to be done in order for us to get to the top of the hate list like every other fighter class has.
  11. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

    Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:
    Aeralik: "...should give berserkers a form of snap aggro they were lacking compared to the other classes"

    This >>IS<< our snap aggro, you won't get something on top of it.
    By agreeing to this change you agree that you don't want snap aggro for our class and then you tell people to l2p and read?
  12. ARCHIVED-Zhonata Guest

    Endorplasmic wrote:
    Don't know about avatars, but again I wouldnt accept this has our only snap aggro ability, but in the short term it better than nothing.
    Bremer-
    Aeralik: "...should give berserkers a form of snap aggro they were lacking compared to the other classes"
    All that says to me is this is a short term fix for our lack of snap aggro. No where in that sentence does it say "This is all your get". Im going to try and be optimistic, as I already said I dont want our class to be fixed via a weapon. No matter the proc or ability, I dont care no matter how much I like the new addition, something else is needed, like what I suggest with rescue, and doesnt need to be on our mythical it needs to be an abilty change. Like In my previous post all this change does is make Insolence more efficent. More often than not all I have needed is Insolence to grab aggro when the MT goes down, but there are instances where +5 simply isnt enought and that is why I would prefer to just see our rescue be beefed up via AA line.
    AS for the l2p comment your suggest instances where you were pulling aggro off the mt using the abilty are silly, you obviously are doing something wrong if you are pulling aggro on a range fight, Druusk. As for Nexona I dont know how you run the fight, but we have a set grp of people who DPS Nexona and the OT isnt one of them, so again you are obviously doing something wrong if you are pulling aggro on Nexona and not DPS'ing her.
    My problem isnt with people saying that this ability doesnt suffice as our only means of extra snap aggro it is when people say how it is now situational. I agree that if this is the only snap aggro abilty we get then No Dice.
  13. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

    You said yourself you pulled mobs in Runny without wanting, so either you admit that by your own definitions you can't play the class and should be ignored or you agree that Insolence can be unpredictable and deadly in combination with the broken world geometry of EQ2 and the giant hit boxes raid mobs can have and that even more with +hate position on the spell. And his post is absolutely clear. This is not a short time fix, this is not a free addition, this 5 hate positions on an open AE in game with broken geometry are supposed to be the Beserker equivalent to Reinforcment, Holy Ground or Peel. So again, by agreeing to this change you agree to Beserkers being the only class without snap aggro. Of course you can also read the post full of wishful thinking and saying that he doesn't exclude that Adrenaline will be fixed, that Beserker DPS will be doubled, that the Mythical will get an defensive effect, that we will get 3 additional snap aggros and a free respec to Guardian and so this will happen for sure. But if you think so you also still believe in Santa Claus. He didn't say we will get our snap aggro later, he said this is the snap aggro.
  14. ARCHIVED-Obadiah Guest

    Hey, come on. Santa promised me he was going to make them fix Adrenaline.

    His post really says nothing about this being "it". Ever. Since all fighters are being revamped, I think it's safe to say more changes are incoming down the road.
  15. ARCHIVED-Zhonata Guest

    Bremer wrote:


    Actually there is a diffrence between pulling mobs through a wall, which insolence line has always done, and pulling Nexona or Drushk off of the MT while trying to grab adds as an OT. The Addition of +5 hate postion changes NOTHING with the RE situation, NOTHING. Unless you are dpsing the MT mob and use insolence or use it right at the start of the fight then you WILL NOT pull aggro *Period*.

    If you are DPSing Nexona or Drushk Then DUH !!! you will pull aggro. If you continue to admit that you pull aggro off the MT while Off tanking During these fight then you cleary do not know how to play the class or you know how to play the class and are being silly with the way you play it and thus should be ignored.
    Granted if you are DPSing Drushk then you are probably killing your grp or if you are DPSing Nexona you are probably triggering the Over Damage AOE. Bottum line in Neither one of these fight should you be DPSing the MT mob and OT at the same time and if you are doing both your DPS should be leaving you in the middle of the hate ladder thus Insolence will not pull the MT mob. So Finally there is only 2 situation where Insolence will pull a mob off the MT and Both would be a user-head-space and timing issue.
    As for his post it is not clear. It does not say that at all. All it says is "Here" This is an abilty that is "Some" form of snap aggro. It does not say this is all you get. It does not say this is your replacement for Reinfrocement/Peel. You ARE over reacting to that information. Now if Aerilik Would come in here and say," This is your Replacement for Reinforcement", I would tell him to go back to the drawing board, but until then Im going to happy with the addition on the Mythical and hope for a better more efficent snap aggro "abilty" in the fall/winter.
    Now I have said my Peace so Im done in this thread, best of luck.
  16. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

    I never said I pulled aggro from Nexona (didn't even mention im) and what do you do when the adds are dead at Druushk? You go afk half the fight?

    "I adjusted the hate gain so that it now gives a position boost with Insolence which should give berserkers a form of snap aggro they were lacking compared to the other classes."
    We were lacking snap aggro, now we have it. Mission Accomplished (for him, not for us). How can you interprete this differently?

    (By the way, I remember the lead designer saying before the Epics were patched in that "some Epics" were in the GU and at once people were posting "omg, no epics for everyone, just some" althoug it was absolutely clear from the sentence that he meant all Epics. So if you just want you can interprete everything in a sentence that isn't there.)

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