hate positional increase on insolence with our mythical discussion

i'm trying not to interject on this discussion but please try to keep replies on topic....

Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:

Hey now, I thought it was pretty clear that my 75% Adrenaline suggestion was sarcasm. I [still] just want it to do what it says it will do.

The AE and PBAoE abilities do still have some use. If the mobs aren't all in front of you, or 1-2 is in range of those but out of melee range, they help. I notice it coming in handy on things like the books in VP in case one is out of position.

Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:

I thought most of us are in agreement that a +5 possition modifier to AOE targets is going to hurt us more then anything?
I dont want to risk the chance of pulling the name off the MT if im OT or pulling the adds off the OT if im MT.
Is that not a valid point?

No, it isnt a valid enough point to out weigh the good the abilty would do for the class.
To start with 10m isnt that big you guys are acting like it effectse the entire zone. Even if you are sitting with 10m OT a mob +5 postions, even if you are indirectly hitting the mob with your Auto Attack aoes, is not going be enough to you bring to the first slot above the MT on aggro. Say you do manage to grab aggro as long as you are not trying to maintain aggro on the mob the MT would have aggro back before the mob could even turn all the way around to smack you.
+5 hate postion is simple not enough postion lvling to gank aggro off the MT if your OT a diffrent mob. Sorry.
Now I could see a concern with ganking aggro off of an OT, if you are MT, if he was within range, but again they should be more than capable of grabing aggro back with their own snap aggro abilty

And if the MT dies? Currently in a fully mythical raidforce, Zerks will be the only fighter w/o any guarentee their snaps going to work. Its simply not snap aggro unless you can go from "Zero to Hero" using it.

And just like rescue's +3 positions, there will be plenty of occassions when +5 simply wont cut it. On those occasions when your MT will face loads of spike damage, the Paladins ability to hold adds (amends) AND their ability to grab a loose mob/namer instantly will look alot better to your raid. Better than watching a Zerk (only +5 up) whos trying to chase down a mob while is 1-shots half your healers..

Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:

Keeping on topic, it's a VERY valid point. Also it's a 20m if you went down the cyclone line (which I'm sure most - if not all zerks are down).

You kind of contridict yourself in the post here.. I mean you say right in your post that +5 hate isn't enough to gank agro off the MT if you're on a different mob (which is false, as an experiment target the MT mob and drop rescue... see what happens and that's only +3) but on the other hand you say that the proposed change is a good snap agro tool.

So how will one snap agro on something when it's not enough to snap agro from? Seems the points are pretty valid.

I also find it over the top when you run into a situation where you have to time your snap agro tool with another class. There isn't enough time to evaluate the situation, you need agro fast and now.. Sorry I don't babysit other classes snap agro recast timers.

It's not hard to realize the proposed change to gibe adding the +5 hate to it has made the spell insanly situational.

Endorplasmic wrote:

Your right I was confusing Insolence with our CA aoe's.
But no Im not contridicting myself, if you are DPS on the MT target you SHOULD be within the top 5 hate postions thus a +5 hate postion tool is very useful and this accounts for 90% of encounters since there are so few AOE encounters.
As far as OT'ing a seperate mob, and ill throw you a bone saying our AOE was hitting it as well, If you even have a remotely compentent raid force you will be right above the healers in hate postion so like 18th, +5 Hate postion is not going to gank aggro period. IF any dps class is being out dpsed by your AOE Auto attack then you have some serious issues. This is the same concept as coming into a fight or DIEING and trying to use rescue to gank aggro you WONT. Because if it did then we wouldnt be having this discussion.
I dont recall saying anything about Baby sitting another class or timing your snap aggro with another class. IF you are are OT'ing a mob, lets say the other 22 people in the raid are afk, and you pull the MT target I would hope your mt would have the sense to Taunt/Rescue/Reinforce what ever to get the mob back instantly or as quick as possible just as if a ranger or assasin ganked aggro. Say you are MT, lets say everone minus the OT is attacking the MT mob, and you manage to pull the OT's mob so that is what again the same situation he is the only one fighting you for aggro and a single +5 increase will take 1 sec to switch back. As long as the OT is attacking the mob they will out postion you easily let alone using taunts/rescue/Reinforcement/ holy ground whatever.
Your argument about the abilty being situation if it applies at all is only going to even count for maybe 10% of the encounter where you have to Dual tank and stay within 20m of one another. Nex and Phar' dar being 2 encounter off the top of my head. I have already said that I aggre that this shouldnt be our only means of snap aggro and we need a standard Snap aggro abilty just like the rest of the fighters, but the addition to Insolence Gibe is a good thing IMO from the sounds of it it is going live anyways so time will tell.

Odin's Frenzy

Duration 6 seconds
Casting .25 seconds
Recast 2 minutes 30 seconds

On a successful melee attack this will cast
Enraging Frenzy on target of attack.
-Increases threat to target by 500
-Increases threat priority of target by 3 positions

I counterbalanced this against reinforcement as best as I could. You'd have slightly less than half the time of a reinforcement, but each strike is 3x more powerful. It should provide just enough positional increases to go from absolute 0 to 24 on a single target within 6 seconds, tho CA spam would make it much quicker.

Due to the duration and mechanics of +positions per strike, its also very well suited for "gathering" adds. If you miss a few mobs initially (when combining Frenzy with an AoE) you will have time to send out another AoE (or continue using natural AE autos) to gather what mobs are still loose.

Downfall would be having to click off your mythical before its use (if your an MT) if you dont want adds sticking to you. Also 6 seconds can pass quickly so you have less time for error.

Hmmm.... That is cool.

Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:

You have access to VP and all the mob within right? Do you not remember that pretty much every one of the Named mobs have a ridiculasly HUGE hit box? You may think that you are 50m away but you are still in range for your AE's to hit.

victer wrote:

Yeah Im well aware of how big the mobs Hit boxes are and as I already stated there are 2 Encounter in VP were this abilty would even have the possibilty of becoming situational, Nexona and Phar' Dar. So that is Kluzen the Protector, Elder Ekron, Druushk, Taskmaster Nichok, Milyex Vioren, Wasp Queen + Qunard Ashenclaw, Hoshkar, Xygoz, Travenro the Skygazer, and Silverwing that this ability will not effect the fights out come other than allow us to grab aggro if the MT dies. So that is 10/12 encounter that I personally would rather have a +5 hate postion tool because it will be usefull if I am DPS'ing the MT target and he goes down.
Encounters that have the small chance of making Insolence Situational.
*Correct me if I missed some**This is based off my guild and the way we postion the mobs*
There is 1/10 encounter in PR *However Trival It is*
There is 0/1 Encounter in PawBuster
There is 0/1 encouter in Thugga
There is 0/1 Encounter in VS
There is 1/9 Encounters in Kor-Sha
There is 0/1 Encounter in COD
There is 2/12 Encounters in VP
There is 0/6 Encounter in SOH *As far as I have been*
It is clearly smaller than 10%, but my point being as it was before is this change is good. We cant have everything, aparently, and I still dont believe that this abilty will pull a mob of the MT IF you are OTing a Seperate mob.

Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:

On all crossed mobs you are either on the mob anyway and should get the mob with Rescue or instantly or they don't need to be tanked or you are not on the mob and need snap aggro to get them. Or you are MT and if you die you'll get the mob back only if all DDs are dead because you don't have snap aggro.

This change will do nothing good and won't solve one problem.

Bremer wrote:

/sigh
Im pretty sure I already said this, BUT I will repeat. WE-DO-NEED-A-STANDARD-SNAP-AGGRO-ABILTY.
We are talking about our mythical, I dont know about you but I dont want a weapon to be used to Fix our class and in the interest of just taking into account our mythical the abilty is a very good one. The biggest arguement I have seen is this update ruining Insolence and making it primarly a situational abilty which I disagree with. Now their maybe situation where it is situational, but the times it is not far out way the times it is. Even if it were they can make it attached to Whirlwind and POOF problem solved.
Some people say the glass is half full some people say the glass is half empty. You strike me as the type of person who sees it half empty. If you are expecting this mythical change to FIX our class then of course you are going to be disappointed. I agree that this abilty will not take you from 0 to tank, but it is better than what we currently have.

Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:

No, because this will be the replacement for a real fix. Aerilak wanted to test how cheap he can buy us und obviously it is very cheap. He said that this will be snap aggro, it is not, but if people are buying it he won't give us a real snap aggro. We get this this crap and nothing else.
We'd be better off getting nothing at all and a snap aggro spell later than this "fix" now.

Bremer wrote:

This thread was intended to be constructive. Talkin down dev's is not helping get us "fixed". If you don't have something constructive to say/suggest then dont say anything.

Well, this is the reason why I am absolutely against this change. What I would instead I allready posted at the beginning of the thread.

Judist wrote:

I have no clue where the name came from, but this is a really nice idea, and it's not OP. A 6 second blast to hit the top is really fantastic. Mix that with set bonuses and AA to bring the recast down and that's a sweet spell. As long as it worked on the current target and not everything you hit. (ie. NON AE)

Endorplasmic wrote:

/signed

Endorplasmic wrote:

/agree

(new name though. maybe.... Hateful Tempest and casts storm of hate)
(on second thought maybe Insulting Tempest would sound better or we could just go with IN YOUR FACE)

I used "Odin's Frenzy" as Odin is the Norse/Germanic diety of war, fury, death, ect. SoE wont use any name with actual religious refrences, so a new one would hafta be picked for sure.