hate positional increase on insolence with our mythical discussion

ok, well i want everyone's opinions on the change for the mythical and our insolence +5 hate positional taunt added to it via the mythical.
what i want to know is who(must be aware of the change and exactly how it affects you or you must have the mythical currently and know its strengths and weak points) is for this change or who is against this change to insolence and if against i would like input on how exactly you would change it. want it on a different ability and how would you have it work exactly? want a completely new ability to replace one of our old decapitated ones? be sure to list specifics so or just a for or against so i can get an idea of who wants it and who wants something different.
i just am curious to know as this has an impact on an ability that many of us use on a fairly common occasion, though there is ways to work it from several angles with the mythical equipped or swapping it out temporarily i still want to know who thinks it will be sufficient or if it will cause you issues doing your job in this class.

I think the proposed change to Insolence will turn the ability into a situational ability instead of one that is used often.

There are enough encounters in the game (raid zone or otherwise) where getting +5 on the hate list is a pretty bad thing (any encounter that is 2 tanked where adds are near the named).

I propose that Open Wounds would be a perfect place to add an ability to help us climb the hate list. If this is *only* for a mythical weapon, it would be awesome for the fact that the ability is perma on the weapon at this point (minus the haste of course). Why not have it be a hate modifier spell? We already have the AA to reduce it's cast time, the spell isn't NEARLY as useful in a raid as it once was (hitting haste cap or very near cap the spell collects dust).

Further, it should only up you on the hate list on the current target. This will rule out any crazy "Oh #$(# I hit gibe and pulled the world on me" situations. Why not make it like re-enforcement, or holy ground, or something that you could cast with confidence KNOWING you'll hit the top of the hate list.

With our only snap agro tool Rescue, there are times when I personally need to get the mob back and that ability doesn't work. At that point it's straggling to up your DPS as fast as possible to attempt to get the mob back. It just sucks.

So in closing, I'd propose to scrap the +5 position AE hate on Insolence and add a single target guarantee top-of-the-hate-list to Open Wounds.

edit: even after sleeping on it... Would it be so bad to get a whole new button to press for the proposed change? If not, than on a mythical OW is probably the best shot, but for the zerks that can't get this mythical I'm not sure what else to suggest for an augmentation to a spell.

I would like to see snap aggro tools that are defined by the parent archtypes and raid roles. Unfortunately there are very few unique ways to modify hate or hate positions, so bear with me if my idea does not sound "fresh."

Brawlers: The monk and Bruiser share similar snap aggro tools. Peel (monk) and Divide and Conquer (Bruiser) are emergency "force target" abilities. IMO this suits the archtype's role perfectly. Neither abilities guarantee max hate when they expire (which is usually not desired). The goal is to use these abilities to save your raid or pull/place targets until a plate tank can reestablish aggro.

Crusaders: Currently the paladin is the only crusader with innate snap aggro. Holy ground is basically a 24 position rescue. It achieves max hate, but does not sustain it. Shadowknights (unfortunately) require a mythical for snap aggro. Their clicky (Touch of Death) is basically an 8 second peel. If SK's receive an "innate" snap aggro spell, I would like to see something very similar to the paladins. Something to top hate list immediately.

Warriors: Guards are the only warrior with an "innate" form of snap aggro. However reinforcement differs because its half snap aggro and half aggro maintenance. There are many occasions where a Guard will use reinforcement when they already have top hate. It can be a wonderful tool to allow the raid to DPS from the very start as hard as possible.

I would like to see the Berserker's tool fall into the category... The ability to establish max hate (not just force targeting) with the bonus of maintaining hate via position modifiers over duration.

To recap...

Brawlers = Force targeting
Crusaders = Super rescues
Warriors = Reinforcements

Is it redundant? Yes. But IMO it NEEDS to be +1 hate on attack over a duration. How its made slightly unique to Berserks should be up to the Berserker community.

I would like to see a change that helps those in the class that cannot get a mythical. I like Gibe the way it is and would hate to have it be a situational use. I believe Gut Roar is the best candidate for change. Perhaps something along the lines of:
When cast- (Recast 5min?? 3.5min??) whatever is fair
- increases hate position by 2, increases threat to target by 850 - 1050
-applies gut roar (lasts 5 sec):
- 50% chance to increase hate position by 1 and threat by 450 on a successful melee attack
**if not berserk
- 75% chance to increase hate position by 1 and threat by 450 on a successful melee attack
**if berserk

Since this could be gotten via AA it makes it more reachable for those of us that cannot get a mythical.

Hell I'd be happy if it was just like a single snap with a debuff. Increases hate position by 7 increase threat by 1k decreases targets mit vs s/c/p by 1000 (recast 3.5 - 5 min)

edit: added values

I think opinions on this will vary depending on the role of each Berserker. This change is good for MT Berserkers, not so good for OT Berserkers, except to be used when the MT goes down. As an MT Berserker (are there even any others that regularly post here?) I like this change a lot since it will make it easier for my DPSers to burn hard right from the start on mobs like the chain stunning Wyverns and Drakes in VP. It'll also make it much easier for me to get aggro back after a death. I'm not sure what I'd change if I was an OT Berserker tbh.

This effect turns an ability I cast every time it is up into a very situational spell and so even lowers my overall hate gain.

Even if an open AE Rescue type spell would fit with our class, it should not ruin another ability or be the replacement for a real snap aggro.

My solution would be adding this in the Beserker tree. The AE range enhancer has absolutely no use, I would replace it with our snap aggro, which should look somewhat like:

On any successfull attack
Increases hate position by 3
if Beserk
Increases hate position by 3

2-3 min recast, 15-20 sec duration, no (yes, you read right, no, in letters N O) penalty, just normal power cost (100 or so)

And Gut Roar should be changed to the following:

Rescue now has a 100 % chance of ... (insert current Gut Roar description here)
Applies Gut Roar when activated, lasts for 5 seconds (instant cast)
Turns Rescue into an open AE

(or simply give new spell on same time with Rescue)

This would give us an open AE rescue for the few situations we need one. You could make a simple macro like with the clickie Beserk to turn Rescue into an open AE when you want. And it would be balanced because of the long recast of Rescue, so people can't complain we get more than everyone else.
Before of course the whole line (forgot name) from Gut Roar has to be changed so you could consider spending more than 5 points in it.

As a couple of posters have mentioned, our Berserker tree is ripe for changing.

I'd love to have a Reinforcement equivalent, and I think the place to put our snap agro is off of our Mythical - having it tied to a weapon that may be replaced makes no long-term sense. I just don't know where to put it.

Insolence - Probably the best choice. You could add a 50% chance on attack to raise a hate position as well as the reactive AE taunt, there you go.
Open Wounds - Best choice for Mythical berserkers, but totally shafts non-mythical berserkers who want to DPS, so a poor choice.
Juggernaut - Heh, yeah, that would be very Berserker-like, actually - lower your mitigation by 800 to give you agro, sounds like something they would do so I should probably not even mention it here
Turmoil - No place here either, especially not with a 3-second casting time.

I think the perfect situation for us in regards to Insolence and snap agro would be adding something like the following to the spell, keeping everything else intact:

Applies Insolent Gibe Initial Effect. Lasts for 5.0 seconds.
On any successful attack, this spell will cast Insolent Taunt on target of attack.
Increases threat priority of target by 5 positions.

Or something like that. There's your berserker reinforcement, you can adjust numbers, percentages, durations and names as much as you want, but the basics are there. Less duration than Reinforcement by far, less effective, but allows us to pick what we are "reinforcing" (unlike a +5 to all in AE which is proposed) and should for our purposes serve.

Some of the suggestions posted above are kind of overpowered, 15-20 seconds of reinforcement on a 2 min timer and so on. We just need something to snap agro, not something that's actually better on paper than Guardian's reinforcement and Paladin's holy ground.

I would probably replace something in the Cyclones tree with this, probably Enhance: Stunning Bellow with Enhance: Insolence and call it a done deal.

It's hard to address the issue without getting into a discussion of what we'd like to have - both on and off the Mythical.

As for the change to the Mythical itself, I'm all for it. Sure, it isn't exactly what I'd put on it if I could change it myself, but it helps more than it hurts IMO by providing an additional snap-aggro tool. It also keeps the focus on multiple-mob tanking, which is supposed to be our expertise. I would still consider snap-aggro as a need for the class, however, and hopefully a need that will be addressed in the expansion.

I wouldn't oppose Endo's Open Wounds suggestion either, even if it were still +5 and not straight to the top. I don't use OW anymore except when soloing. Wouldn't suck for the ability to have some reason to exist again. But I think I like the actual change better, as it is AoE focused, which seems more appropriate for us.

I don't oppose Grandmasterub's Gut Roar suggestion. I had that ability for a loooooooong time. It's hard to look at precisely, but when I looked through logs I could find no tangible benefit gained from it - i.e. no evidence that I was resisting something as a result of using it. Wouldn't suck for that ability to have some reason to exist. And it's AoE focused. I wouldn't mind if the incoming change was on Gut Roar instead of Insolence, but given Gut Roar's recast time that's probably a bit much.

If I were designing the change to the Mythical I would add the ability "Adrenaholic" to it. Makes Adrenaline do what it @#$%ing says it will do in the description. Also increases the damage reduction to 75%.

I don't think it really matters though. The change is this Wednesday (give or take). It's done. None of this is going to happen. I will go way out on a limb and opine that this is the last meaningful class change (even though it's via gear) we will see until the expansion with the possible exception of a fix to the Adrenaline ability or its description.

First, I am extreamlly appreciative that our mythical is getting looked at, granted its along with the rest, but its the first such nugget to the zerker community.

Now, as far as the change, its marginal, at best.

My point is that ever since EoF, the lack of a 'positional snap agro' has been glaring. Now I know there are some that feel that it is not needed until the upper RoK raids, but I disagree. I am an MT and an OT, and in both positions there are times that this is sorely needed, and NOT attached to an OUT-of-enounter AOE. If this was attached to Bellow, thats one thing, but to attach it to Gibe again makes it very situational. I still believe that the best place to attach a positional hate is to War Pledge where a hate increase is already at. Or allow a positional hate increase to be added to War Pledge via AA lines, such as Gut Roar.

As far as an alternate change to the Mytical? How about adding a Turmoil like proc? or a Raid Wide Zerk proc?

In the end, at least it is a move in the right direction.

I am a berserker with the mythical version of the weapon. I have been OT and MT in raiding since the game was launched. This expantion I have been OT the majority of the time.
SOE's Perposed Changes (+5 possitions to gibe with mythical)
I do not agree that we ever need snap agro on an entire encounter. The tools we have now and our awsome AE dps make grabbing adds easy enough and i think an encounter hate possition modifier is overkill and actaully going to hurt me in most situations. I will have to be VERY carefull of when useing this to make sure that I do not grab hate on a part of the encounter that I dont want to touch (for example: if i am OT i can possibly grab the name that the MT is on, or if I am MT I can possibly grab the adds that the OT is on).
The 5 possitions is nice but it does not answer our problems. We need something that will ensure us to the top of the hate list. 5 possitions is nice but after a death or a total mem wipe 5 possitions in a 24 man raid will only get you to about half way into the hate list. You will still have to DPS and taunt your butt off to get to the top of the hate list (this takes time) and by the time you DO get agro you will be surrounded by a bunch of corpses.
I am also not satisfied by this change because it is coupled with the mythical weapon. Players that have yet to optain the weapon are still going to be struggling and in the next tier when these weapons become obsolete we will loose this snap agro tool and have to rely on rescue again.
My perposed changes
I have a few suggestions and I invite SOE to choose any of them.
Insolence : Keep the effect on insolence but make it a change to the spell and not an addition to the spell when you equip the weapon. Also make it so that it is not an encounter possition modifier. Have it only change possition to your current target. It would read something like this:

This would be an answer to the gaurdian's reinforcement. They get a 12 second duration buff that adds 1 possition ANYTIME they hit something. This on the other hand lasts for 30 seconds but you only have a 50% change to grab hate every hit.
Gut Roar: This is an end ability in the berserker tree. This skill is not working as intended and I dont think anyone even uses it. Lets turn it into something usefull. My idea is something like this:

This will not get you to the top of the hate list as fast as my previous suggestion but it would still really help. Think about it... our single 1.8k taunt turns into a ~6k taunt while the DPS we do generates 3x the agro also. The only flaw I see in this is forceing berserkers to spend points in the tree that opens up this ability (the tree sucks for raiding).
Open wounds: This skill needs help now that mythical'd berserkers dont need it anymore. I am on the fence if this should be a change once the berserker aquires the mythical or not since this spell only becomes not needed once you aquire the weapon. My idea would be something like:

Bremer wrote:

I disagree. That ending ability also gives 5% to the resistability or our taunts. Makeing it slightly easier for our taunts to land on orange mobs. I think this is the most important end ability in the berserker tree. The clicky berserk thingy is nice and arguably better but i still think having all my taunts 5% harder to resist wins.
But this might be the wrong thread to talk about our Berserker tree. Lets stay focused on they change that SOE is offering and our thoughts on it and how to replace/fix it.

victer wrote:

/agree

if any changes should be made to cyclone it should be:
-remove the extended range. and instead
-lower the casting times of AE combat arts (blue background only) to .5 sec or even 1 sec

keep the 5% harder to resist taunts

Ok, if you think 5 % increased taunt hit rate is better than a snap aggro...

Bremer wrote:

huh who said that? you said that the AA end line is useless and you wanted it completely changed.
I said its unnessesary.
Read the posts please.

Alright to start with I like the proposed change to our mythical. In my experience I have never had any problems maintaining aggro and in fact Zerkers ability to maintain aggro is one of the best. I also understand that Some Zerkers play their class differently than others.
To start with I'm kinda tired of the constant "we need an answer to *Insert Guardian Abilty Here* ". I am well aware of the reason for this; this is because Guardian can do about the same single target damage as us now. They are impeding on our territory as Offensive tanks and so everyone wants to have our ability matched to Even out the playing field. There argument there is that DPS=Hate and they are right guardians wouldn't be able to hold aggro without their current dps. In there lies the problem. WE as a class do not need to have our abilities modified to become more guardians, guardians needed to either be knock down the DPS rung or we need to be boosted. There needs to be the same clear difference in Offensive tanking ability between the guardian and berserker as there is between Defensive tanking. A guardian can DPS spec and sit right below me on the parse, but the heck if I could Tank spec and even come close to his health, Aggro, and utilities for defensive tanking.
Simply Put GUARDIAN DO TO MUCH DMG they are defensive tank and they should not under any circumstance ever be able to out damage the offensive tank. Zerkers are suppose to gain their Aggro through DPS and guardians are suppose to gain hate through Utilities and taunts that was the original concept as it stand Guardians are stepping on our toes a bit while still maintaining their utilities which makes them the better choice. That is my biggest perceived issue with our class is that simply put we are being over shadowed because the Dev's did a quick FIX on the guardian aggro control, they basically made them Zerkers with Guardian Utilities.
The other reason for The poor outlook on Zerkers is the lack of AOE raid mobs. In AOE encounter we can outdps almost anyone and that is when we shine and the gap between our dps and the guardians dps is clear. Our Potential DPS Far excedes the guardians.
Ok so on to some actually useful stuff. Zerkers don't have an issue maintain aggro we do a lot of DPS, but I think that need a little boost and here is how.
1. Turmoil Casting=1 sec - Just like Juggernaught and Open Wounds - Currently the 3 sec cast time mostly negates the damage boost in combat.
2. Open Wounds - Increase Max Aoe Targets from 4 to 6. This will give it meaning after we have or mythical.
3. Bloodshower, Intrusion, Stunning Bellow Casting=1 sec . All 3 need to have their cast time mimic our AA line AOE abilities currently these abilities are completely useless as they step on our auto attack to use them and our first attack does more damage let alone adding in double attacks and procs.
4. Fix our Hit/miss Ratio Currently i am missing about 5-8% more often than every other DPS class in the game.
5 Fix Adrenaline: When it is activated it need to say on regarless whether we are zerk or not just like Juggernaught.
These changes would give us a DPS boost furthering the gap between Zerkers and Guardians. This would Make Open Wounds useful after we get our mythical +2 AOE Targets/haste and add 3 more currently useless ability to our CA cycle.
As for the Request for Snap aggro. Yes, we need snap aggro. No, we don't need reinforcement or any variant thereof.
I happen to like the Idea to turn Gut Roar into an actual hate Position Tool This would actually give meaning to our Debilitation line. I agree that we need to have a standard Hate position tool outside of rescue just like the rest of the fighters. Any hate position tool we gain needs to be about snatch aggro though and not maintaining if you want to switch to defensive stance and maintain aggro like a guardian then roll one. If you want to man up and fight raid mobs in offensive stance keep riding the pony. On the AA change line of thought it would also be nice to have the abilty to lower Adrenalines Reuse timer and its mana reduction. After all it is pretty much our only defensive abilty.
Finally our mythical. I'm not exactly sure why people are whining about this addition to Insolence as something that makes in situational. The "ONLY" time this ability would be situational is if you, the OT, and your MT are tanking the mobs within 10m of one another. Even then the Guardian would have more than enough hate postion gaining abilties to maintain aggro over their mob. This of course is assuming that you are even in the top 5 for the MT mob which if you are then you should be more worried about beating your OT mob up and maintaining aggro than DPS to get high on the parse.
IMO it is perfect as it grabs aggro for us and then lets Insolence's proc work for maintaining it. This Addition to our mythical gives us one of the powerful aggro control abilities in game and yet there are still whiners who want reinforcement. Ask how guardians if they would like an AOE +5 hate position tool that effects all targets within 10m........
I will however to appease the neh Sayers say that it could be added to whirlwinds effect and only be in effect as long as it is active. I however don't see the need for this

Lets be fair shall we. This will not solve anything for all the zerkers who do not have their mythical. Snap aggro will still remain a problem when equipment is expected to solve the issue. Personally snap aggo is a class issue that should be looked into and fixed. Honestly zerkers have nill for snap aggro minus rescue we all know this. No reinforcement, harm touch, holy ground, ect. When high end raiding equipment is expected to solve class issues there will be many players loosing ground. Honestly high end raid guilds that do the elite zones are very strict as to whom is in the guild they run. The average Joe with mediocre skills will not have a snowballs chance in hell getting into these types of guilds so they can attain equipment in order to fix class issues.
The not that making the mythical have a snap aggro tool is a bad idea but it just seems that it will leave a huge portion of the zerkers with a problem they will never see fixed. Unless they get the mythical.

GrandMasterUb wrote:

/agree
Completly agree with this post. The AE range increase while is usefull sometimes, I have not missed it when i respected and didnt have it. It has also gotten me in more trouble than helped me in the past.
This proposed change of having it lower our AOE cast time is perfect, however it needs to include all of our AOE's period. Its simple math unless the AOE can do 6k+ to primary target and 3k+ to 3 other Aoe targets then it isnt worth interrupting my Auto Attack. Thus the ability is useless which sums up all our aoe abilties right now.
I would propose.
Cyclones
-Reduces Resistability of Taunts by 10%
-Reduce all Berserker CA AOE line abilties cast time by 50%
-Improve reuse speed of Insolence's by 15%
That makes all of our aoe's usefull again and gives us a 20-25 sec reduction on Insolence.

Zhon@Lucan DLere wrote:

This thread is about the hate possition increase on the mythical... your thoughts on it and a possible alternative.
I think this is the major issue the devs have with us. Some zerkers want more and more and more.
Look... the simple fact is bottom line if you take away everyones mythical weapons what does this class really need? A Snap agro tool. We dont need to have our AE timers reduced or any of that stuff. Lets not confuse the devs with a bunch of other things you would LIKE to see changed. God knows theres plenty of things i'd love to see changed but this thread is not about that.
Lets stick to the basics and get this snap agro problem figured out first cause after all that is all we really NEED.

victer wrote:

I wholeheartedly agree. I would go further though. This thread, our thoughts on the change to the mythical and possible alternatives are also moot. The change goes in what, tomorrow? Mythical "tweaks" are done now; life goes on.

As has been posited elsewhere, putting Snap Aggro on the Mythical doesn't really fix the fact that Berserkers WITHOUT the Mythical are lacking in a snap aggro tool. Is that what we really need above all else? Maybe. Personally I'd rather see Adrenaline fixed, and hopefully that will happen first since any new threat position ability won't be coming until the expansion.

Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:

-Victer

Acutually, it is relevant and I have commented on the my thoughts for the mythical and or proposing a new hate postion tool. I was simply expanded on his thought of replacing cyclone with a more useful abilty. The Dev's are ultimatly going to do what they think is best so the more ideas the have to work with the better. I also have to agree with your point about some zerker wanting more and more.
I personally dont think asking for our currently useless aoe abilties to be revamped either directly or indirectly through the AA change is asking for more and more it is asking for something to be Fixed. Right now if they just flat took away all our AOE abilties i wouldnt even turn my head because that is how useless they are as said before ACT doesnt even remember the last time i used any one of them. Now asking for A mock Reinforcement, 75% Adrenaline, and god know what else uber silly idea yeah that would be in the more and more category.
The point I want to get across was the reduction in the AOE abilties the Insolence change was something that someone else mentioned, i liked it, and would probably fall into the more and mroe category, but the AOE cast time reduction is still needed.
As far as the mythical is concerned I have yet to see anyone come up with a valid point to not have the proposed changed to the mythical happen. I do agree that we need to have a snap aggro abilty that isnt attached to a weapon and I agreed with the proposed chance to Gut Roar as it is currently a broken abilty.