Harvest bots

As I have learned more about the game and developed my crafters and increased the amount of harvesting I do to supply those crafters, I have started becoming interested in a topic I did not expect to encounter for several more tiers: bots, mainly harvest bots.
I do not know if this is the appropriate forum to bring up the subject, but harvest bots are closely related to crafting, as I tried to show above.
I've searched the forums for information on bots and not found much. So I thought I'd take a shot at creating a thread to discuss it.
A harvest bot is, to my understanding, a toon that is automated and controlled by a computer program such that the toon can harvest for hours and hours without a human being at the keyboard directly controlling its actions. The bot is told which kinds of nodes to target for harvest and then runs around a zone or portion of a zone seeking out and harvesting those target nodes (for example, ore or roots). The human shows up after maybe 6 hours and collects the rares that the bot harvested. These rares can then be sold on the broker.
Other types of bots might be crafting bots that repeatedly craft the same item and bots that farm certain kinds of monsters for valuable loot drops.
It is my understanding that these bots are illegal, but I am not certain of that.
When I was much greener than before I got the impression from these forums that bots were found in high level zones and that they were used by plat spammers who lived in far off places.
I have recently discovered that at least some harvest bots may be my own guildmates who farm mid-tier zones along side my toons, stealing my nodes in the process, and who may live in Qeynos in nice houses with nice furniture. They think nothing of putting 100 or so rares of the same type, and thousands upon thousands of the same common raws, on the broker at the same time. Now, I'm not saying that everybody who sells large amounts of rares or common raws on the broker is using a harvest bot. I'm just saying I have learned of 2 or more who, in my opinion, quite likely are.
I, of course, have no way of knowing with 100% certainty that these toons are harvest bots, but I think I can tell beyond a reasonable doubt after watching their behavior in the field the way a birdwatcher observes robins or an animal researcher observes mountain gorillas.
If this type of harvest bot activity is not illegal, I'd certainly be interested in learning how to do it myself. It would basically allow me to "print plat" at will while I was busy taking care of real-world issues. Then I could sit down at my computer and outfit my toons with the best of everything just by logging on.... while also preventing some of my competitors from harvesting the rares I targeted while my bots were present in that zone... and it would allow me to have a fair amount of say regarding setting the market price for said rares.
I'm not sure what people get out of that kind of activity though. Maybe they do it for the real-life profit of selling plat. Perhaps they are able to equip their guild members as well, guild members who may or may not know how the rares were obtained, becoming popular and even more powerful in-game in the process.

Are harvet bots an issue that concerns people who play EQ2 or is it something I've realized late in the game, something veterans take for granted as a part of the EQ2 experience?
Are harvet bots against the Terms of Service?
If not, does every guild have one or two and how can I learn to develop my own?
If harvest bots are against the Terms of Service what exactly is the best way to document and report my suspicions?
I did report my suspicions regarding one toon, but that toon was back in the same exact area doing the same thing at the same time of day just three days later. Perhaps I was wrong about the toon being a bot. Or perhaps there has not been enough time to investigate the matter. Or perhaps the matter is not going to be investigated.

Perhaps this isn't an issue that concerns others, and I just need "to grow up" and enjoy the game for what I can, and not worry about how others play, even if it directly impacts me.
I just wanted to bring the subject up and see what I might learn from it. If the thread is deleted or locked and my account suspended I'll take that to mean I should not bring it up again!

There is a very important distinction which must be made between true "botters" who use third party software to automate certain aspects of the game, and "farmers" who are people who play (mostly) legitimately and whose main objective within the game is to churn out plat above all else.

Actual botters use software to be able to craft and shop on the broker while completely away from the game, because it is possible within a third party program to initiate the various crafting and searching commands with no further user intervention once the initial parameters are set. I am not aware of any third party applications which can automate the process of harvesting, however. Harvesting requires constant and varied movement about a zone, as well as the ability to discern between nodes and other objects (mobs, trees, etc...). I know of no such applications which can accomplish all this with any reliability. I should add for the record that I am against using any third party software of any kind, and that I have harvested and raised 10 crafting toons so far to T8 the old-fashioned, mind-numbing way. With the appropriate music playing on Winamp during this process it's far less painful.

I believe that the people you are observing are in the second category, and are using the fact that certain lower-tier harvests are in high demand to milk the market for all it's worth. However, I also believe that while what they are doing is certainly obnoxious to some, there is noting in the EULA that prohibits it, because unless I'm highly mistaken, these players are physically at the keyboard and guiding their toons from node to node just as I do.

I would strongly suggest that, since these are guildies you are talking about, you have a polite conversation with them about their methods - at the very least bring up the node ganking because that's poor etiquette to put it mildly - and see what happens. Is the guild leader aware of their behavior? is it a problem to other players that you know of? If so then make this known to your leadership so that they can take the appropriate action. If nothing changes and they are allowed to stay, then moving on to a different guild may be your best course of action.

Every type of bot is against the TOS and while SOE says they are trying to get rid of them, they are not very successful. For every known bot they ban, 10 more spring up in their place. I am one of the "veterns" you speak of in your post (been playing since a few months after launch) and I can tell you with a fair amount of certainty...bots are here to stay. The only things you can do in my opinon:

1. /petition them every chance you get . I am not sure if this does any good whatsoever as I have never really gotten a response other than "Thank you for the report of suspicious behavior" BUT if they are investigating someone and they get several /petitions about them, it cant hurt.
2. Dont buy things from the broker from a known botter or anyone you "suspect" of botting. People have often claimed that i am a botter (im not) because I am very efficient at collecting harvest and often sell off the soft metal in large quantities while harvesting stones. A person's behavior is also not a good indicator as I have had friends tell me I sometimes LOOK like a botter in game because of my harvesting style. I simply have learned the most efficient way to harvest. You too will learn this when you have 9 crafters on one account and 6 on another to feed. (this is of course not counting the 2 tinkerers I have and the 2 muters). Either way, I dont knowingly node steal though I do occasionally beat someone to a node especially when harvesting in low level zones due to my run speed.
3. Simply ignore the bot problem or more appropriately accept that they are here to stay and there is nothing you can do about it. It is a whole serenity thing. Accept the things you can not change

Jeez I had no idea they had a harvesting macro too.

Well, posting the links will probably get this thread locked or deleted, but there you go....

To the OP, by all means raise a colossal stink with these people, but not in a way that can get YOU in trouble.

And for everyone else, next time you want to grumble or complain about market conditions or what have you, just remember that this is what we're up against, though speaking for myself I think it's worth the trouble to ban as many of these monkeys as possible.

I agree my friend. *sigh* and people wonder why they can not find the artisan they need that will make a product for a reasonable price

For the definative answer on "is this allowed", you only need to actually read the ToS (Terms of Service) or EULA (End User License) that is displayed when you start the game and you have to click "I Accept" in order to play.

From the ToS/EULA (it gets called either or both by players):
9. You may not use any software to modify the Software to change Game play. You may not create, facilitate, host, link to or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, such as through server emulators. You may not decrypt or modify any data transmitted between client and server and you may not use, post, host or distribute macros, “bots” or other programs which would allow unattended game play or which otherwise impact game play. You may not take any action which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our infrastructure. Except in connection with Station Exchange and subject to all of the provisions of the Station Exchange Service Agreement, you may not buy, sell or auction (or host or facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any Game account, characters, items, coin or copyrighted material or any other intellectual property owned or controlled by us or our licensors without first obtaining our express written permission.


You can only /petition and fill out the appropriate data if you suspect someone of botting. Be sure you include as many details as possible. If someone send you a /tell or otherwise says they use a bot app, you can do a /report [offender name] and then a /petition. /report will capture a section of your chat log. You need to follow it up with a /petition so you can fill in details.

There are some of us who could be deemed to be crusaders on this topic.

Rijacki wrote:

A botter would be extremely stupid to send a messege admitting to using a third party program. After I made my post (which was deleted by a mod) about one of these third party programs, I researched it a bit more....they make those things smart. The have all kinds of nifty features that are supposed to hinder getting caught. Personally I'd like to sock anyone caught botting but *shrug* I also accept that there are things I have no control over and can only accept. This does not make me happy....but I deal.

Bots do and will always exist for one simple reason. LAZY players.

As long as people are willing to pay 50s for regular ore and lots of gold for rares the bots will continue. Btw, so will all the players who harvest to supply the lazies. (new word ftw)

To everyone worried about the cost of raws on the broker: GO HARVEST!

Thank you for the replies. Now that I know without question that harvest bots are illegal I won't waste any more time aspiring to become one.
One poster seems fairly certain harvest bots do not exist. I am equally certain they do.
The mindless repetitive behavior of bots during almost endless harvest sessions lasting 6 hours or more while most people are asleep is one indicator.
That they do not revive once killed is another.
That the identity as a bot has been confirmed by a guild officer is a third.

I would think there must be some way for Sony to identify bots as bots based on summary statistics... such as rare harvest rates.
In theory Sony could automate their own harvest bots on test servers and establish the highest expected rare harvest rate in each zone over repeated trials. They could then monitor rare harvest rate for each toon in game every time a toon logs on. Any toon that consistently approaches or exceeds the maximum established rare harvest rate would be flagged as a probable bot for closer examination or for immediate banning.
There are other factors that would have to come into play, and it might sound like a fair amount of work, but in theory it should be possible, and since the bulk of the monitoring would be automated it should not be as labor intensive as it might sound.

I've heard that some people enjoy killing harvest bots because the bot might drop their load of rares providing a massive loot drop for the victor.
Indeed last night one of the harvest bots was killed while I was nearby. Harvest bots, I've learned, do not have pvp titles because they are killed a little too often while automated... they do not fight or escape as well as a human-controlled player.
Perhaps one way to "get back at the bot" a little bit would be to send a server wide tell on the tier 1 chat channel alerting everyone to a probable harvest bot in a certain area (without naming names) so that if anybody wanted to try for a massive loot drop they could sign onto their toons of the other alignment and give it a shot.... ....if that is legal.

IcterusGalbula wrote:

I'd argue the first one (as I've done that on nights with a colicly baby and it's hard to cite odd hours when the game is played world wide), but not the second two. If you have something in chat confirming a bot, use /report (which sends the last 100 lines of your chat to the GM's), then /petition and be sure to reference the /report.

The proper format for report is /report [some text describing what you're reporting, like "Asdfghjkl confirming in chat they use a harvesting program"].

LadyGalasya wrote:

I never said it wouldn't be stupid to do so. But, there are players who think there is nothing wrong with it and will even dispute the ToS/EULA if you show them. There are also players stupid enough to brag about really really stupid, rule-breaking things because they think it's cool and that somehow they are immune or will get away with it.

Rijacki wrote:

That's the truth.

If the player you suspected of being a bot disappeared for 3 days and then was back at it...its possible that the player was suspended for a few days and went back to it as soon as they could get back into game.
Keep reporting them. It might take more than one incident to get rid of a bot if they arn't a 24/7 plat farmer. If they are a legitimate player, they will stop using the bot scripts instead of loosing their account. I really don't understand why anyone would risk loosing their account for plat.

Also I would just like to add that being overly paranoid about people botting can hurt legitimate players.

Just because someone is harvesting an area - "running a loop" and ignores your tells doesn't mean they are a bot.

The other day I was running around exploring Gfay while waiting for my bf to level to 10ish and then I was going to mentor him for AA exp (We just reactivated) and went to check out Crushbone. This was one of my favorite dungeons in EQ1. Well right outside the dungeon zone in there are 3 caves which just happen to be a fantastic area for tier 2 ore and stones, if any of you want to check it out. Personally I'm going to stay clear of it from now on. Anyway, these three caves are great because as long as you are higher than level 30, there is no aggro, about 5-6 nodes in each cave and by the time you clear the third one, the first is repopping. So I was like "Sweet!!" since I needed more silver clusters to make spells for my lowbie conjuror.

I made about 3 laps of the caves which took ~25 min and ran a bit around the surrounding area whenever I saw a node or shiny in the distance. Then I ran into Crushbone and explored it completely and even managed to get the two collection quests done (yay for empty dungeons playing NZ time). After exploring the dungeon I did a few more laps of the cave, going afk in between to eat my pizza that had just arrived (with my character also idle of course). Then I harvested my way out and went to mentor my bf for an hour or so - and I passed a level 20 dirge a long the way who sent me a tell saying hi. Now I don't know this guy and from past experiences when someone I don't know sends me a tell saying "Hi", they want something! Especially if they are signifcantly lower level than you are. So being the antisocial ***** I sometimes can be, I just ignored him and went on my way.

After about an hour of mentoring, my bf went to bed and I went with him (*wink*) sitting afk in Kelethin for about 2 hours or so (I sometimes forget I leave my computer on ><) Well I couldn't sleep so I came back, did some more harvesting for the rares I needed, then crafted all my spells for the conjuror and started to play her. As I was running around to Timorous Deep, I got stuck... and wiggled trying to get free and turned around and lo and behold there is a senior GM in bee form sitting near me. She sent me a tell saying that someone reported me for using a 3rd party program and harvest botting and that their logs "indicated that this was highly likely". I guess a less-than-senior GM must have sent me a tell during one of my extended afks (during which, as I pointed out, I was neither harvesting, nor even moving!) and assumed that I must be a bot because I didn't respond. And apparently the only reason I didn't get a suspension was because the senior GM "didn't catch me". Catch me what? Harvesting? I guess I'm lucky I managed to finish up 20 minutes prior to this conversation.

TBH I applaud the GMs for being so quick to respond to reports of botting (Its much better than certain other games I've played - such as one with 10 mil subscribers - not naming any names) and I'm more angry with the guy who reported me. FFS I wasn't even in the area for more than an hour and a half tops - and broken into 3 sessions at that. I've never been reported for anything in the 8 years I've been playing MMOs and certainly have never cheated or done anything dodgy during that time.

Doesn't SoE have a way of scanning computers looking for dodgy 3rd party software? I am almost positive that WoW does that. TBH, like the OP I didn't even know it was possible to harvest bot. Its amazing how much effort cheaters put into cheating when they could just be playing the game.

Now I'm overly paranoid and afraid to stay in the same area harvesting for too long or be too efficient at it lest I get banned for it. I actually LIKE harvesting and have on many occasions done it for 2 hours or more. Its like opening little mini treasure chests! Also I'm trying to level 7 different crafters so its kinda a necessity

/rant off. Sorry for the long post but I'm still pretty upset about the whole thing ><

IcterusGalbula wrote:

"unattended gameplay" is defined as against the terms of service. If you are found by the GM's to be breaking the terms of service your account may be suspended or banned from engaging in play.

Be careful in your accusations of another player botting, you may be petitioned for gameplay disruption and harrassment if the player in question is not botting.

In MMO's you can not constantly compare yourself to others in the game who have more plat, bigger houses, nicer fursnishings or better gear. There are many people who play these games 10+ hours a day so unless you are willing to make this your full time job, find your enjoyment in it for you and not what other people have.

Be careful what you wish for -

harvest bots often drive the prices of goods down on the market and make these things you want to have much more affordable. If you dont believe that go back to the first week rok was released (as a current example) and look at the prices raw materials were selling for on the market as compared to now.

Enjoy~

Artemiz@The Bazaar wrote:

Thanks.
I am being careful. I've provided several lines of evidence including an admission from a guild officer.
I do not think I've ever compared my plat, house, or furniture to that of the person or persons I think are botting. If I recall, I said some of them have nice houses and nice furniture. I've never said what kind of house or furniture I have.
I should not have to make this my full time job to have somebody banned for breaking the rules. That is Sony's job.
If harvest bots drive the price down, then they must exist.
I'd rather pay more for legally obtained raws than buy goods at a cheaper price because they were harvested by violating the terms of service.
In addition, harvest bots deprive all crafters of lots of money precisely because they do drive the price of many things down.

Bahhhh!!!!

Kill em! You can do that where I come from. ^^

*scratches butt in thought*

Come to think of it.. I've farmed quite a few bots unattended.. is that considered a breach of the EULA?

IcterusGalbula wrote:

Scripters are here to stay until the technology is available to counter them. Currently, that technology is not available. I know first hand having worked on a "task force" that first introduced PunkBuster to the MMO genre a year or so back.

In the meantime you are limited to live support. They get thousands of /reports per week and they have to address each one, one at a time, in the order they're received. You can report somebody for breaking the rules, but the harsh reality of it is.. they may not have action taken against them for weeks, months or ever depending on the case load that the CS team is dealing with.

And, as depressing as it sounds.. when a technology is devised to detect and auto-ban offenders.. said offenders will have come up with something completely new to get around the system. They have zero over head and all the time in the world.

So.. once harvesting bots are countered.. a few months.. more likely weeks.. we'll be right back where we are now complaining about them.

Don't meant to rub any body's nose in it.. but when MMO's segregated PvP from PvE.. this was the result. You exterminated your most effective counter strike against scripters and bots. Cause if you look back historically.. "bots" and "farmers" didn't exist in a fashion that they could launch a script and farm away daily without risk. The whole scripting/bot/farming thing evolved when UO segregated its servers at a time when people claimed "We're tired of dying to PK's!!" and the MMO's responded. However, I'll never forget Richard Garriot's words at GenCon that year.. "You are unleashing a whole new swarm of locusts".

Hindsight sucks.

Spyderbite@Venekor wrote:

Thanks for that reply. I also advocate the killing of bots whenever possible. In an earlier post I suggested sending a server wide tell on the tier 1 chat channel alerting people to a probable bot so they could try to kill it if they wanted. However, if I did that I suppose that one of botter's friends and co-conspirators could report me for harassment even though the probable bot really is a bot.
Indeed the botter could report me himself if he is running two toons at once: one botting and the other live.

IcterusGalbula wrote:

Only if you are playing on a PvE server and you lure a mob on to him/her. On a PvP server.. if the bot is opposite faction.. fair game! If not.. ICQ a buddy in the opposite faction saying "free tokens!!!" XD

On a PvE server you get to Watch, /Report, and sit and watch them happily farm away. They are enjoying the Utopia that everyone begged for years ago after all.

I'm no bible thumper.. but one quote comes to mind.. "Every Eden has its Serpent".