Haraghur the Deathless

on the topic of risk v reward since i find this thread has steared over in that direction...here is a small sampling of the type of crap u get for winning eq...(drops from princes, MO, tarinax and cruor, imo the hardest mobs in game xcept the freakin NB in hos)



Yep its useless items with FT1 and + distruption or other skills, leather priestly helmet that cant be used by druids, decrease attack speed procs thats useless since i as a mystic can already debuff for more then cap. the enchanted dagger i wont even comment on nor tarinax spine (ya we need more 2-handers in this game)..oh and the symbol ya thats decent..till u notice that it cant be worn in ranged slot...wth not? Top end mobs shouldnt drop crap or even "ok ill take it so it doesnt rot" loot.

someone please tell me how any of this loot is a adequate reward for the risk involved..

edit: oh and i rather watch paint dry then do HOF its that freakin boring...it used to be fun after the 1st nerf i think and we were like lvl 68 tank and the zerks ae's would kill me outright etc etc..then they nerfed it again to what it is now and we're 70 and its just a freakin bore...and now they nerfing it again...wth for it was already pretty easy..
Message Edited by GidionSWE on 06-09-2006 04:00 AM

have to agree with both Ish and Ddrak on this one... HoF was fine... I've healed through it and nuked through it... you just had to be on your toes.

Sorry to pick on a minor point but I'm already in agreement that non-instanced loot should markedly exceed instanced loot.

That's actually because the zerks were orange to a lv68. If you take a lv68 down there and they get into the AEs then they'll be hurting badly still. Lv70 itself makes HoF a lot easier.

Which actually brings up an interesting point. I find the way you can trivialize an encounter by simply gaining one level a little disturbing. The sudden change in difficulty means most encounters can be beaten simply by levelling up rather than gearing up. This seems to back SoE into a corner with itemization because it guarantees that if not immediately then the first week into the next expansion which brings a level increase you'll see every casual guild on a server being able to beat the top tier content from the previous expansion and put themselves on virtually even footing with the hardcore guilds. I know EQ1 is a bad comparison, but even after Lv70 came in, getting to Time was still an achievement for most casual guilds. Had it been in EQ2, nothing would be able to hit the tank and AEs would bounce off because it would all be blue con.

Dd

indeed. No nerf was needed in HoF, just attentiveness.

I gotta comment on this, cause HoF didn't really require that much. I've done all of HoF with a Pally and a Fury and me. But that was after the first nerf I believe. Before it it was fun. Always watching, had to babysit my aggro...everyone getting one shotted. Those are the zones worth a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. I loved it. Went a handful of times in my mid to late 60s and we couldn't clear it with the p/u groups I was with. Took a guild group in, and we cleared it no real problems, but it was fun and hard nonetheless. I mean it took us a while to realize the debilitate, cause who was expecting that? LOL. The game is getting dumbed down even further....and I for one don't appreciate it.

Debilitate/Dispatch is really the only "tricky" thing in there (I don't count staying out of a melee AE as tricky), and if you can't handle that then you'll never be able to cope with your Relic farming of the first handful of mobs in Lab...

:smileywink:

Dd

The only problem with Debilitate, Dispatch and whatever teh SK one is called is that they scale differently for a mob. I thought that mob spells were not supposed to be super powerful versions of players, and that they were to be equal. Hence, the fixes to Ice Comet etc. I find it relatively disturbing that the mobs still have it this way. Then again, I could be wrong.
Now, I do not find HoF or Labs difficult because of these debuffs. But at the same time I'd like these to be fixed if its a bug. It doesnt happen often but sometimes luck isn't on your side and you get smoked by hammerfist exactly after it lands (which still needs to be changed to a melee art).
Anyway, fix bugs, all of them. Keep the zones difficulty the same or more difficult

Before HoF got nerfed in my old guild we had a group go in before they were 70 and a bruiser was the tank. Took skill to beat it which is very rare now in this game to aquire victory.

i still hate how they nefred HoF, it was way too fun beating it at 68. If anything, they shoulda made it even harder. Now its just zone in, af, nuke, zone out...just like every other group instance.

I'm pretty sure HoF was never nerfed (not counting the SK 20k deathtouches being fixed). We were doing it daily for a month or more from the release of KoS on and the only thing that changed was things got easier once they went yellow from orange.

Tanks can still die from a Dispatch/Vanquishing Blow combination hitting them in quick succession for 13k, even at 70. Doesn't happen often, but it's possible.

For the record though - it was a lot more fun when they were orange. I'd love to see a "hard" version where stuff was jacked up 2 levels.

Dd

Back to Haraghur, since people want a hard mob rather than a "long camp", just make him insanely hard, I mean really really insanely hard so that only a few people worldwide could kill him. That's what they ask for, a challenging mob, give it to them SOE. Because so far everyone is able to kill him easily. It should be hard, so make the mob tough enough. Make this mob a real challenge. That would make the latest change in his respawn timer a bit more acceptable. Thanks.

Haraghur should be a challenge for two group, not easy for four people.

its easy as it is already. You can prob trio it. There's absolutely nothing challenging about this mob. A dumb mob just got even dumber, thats all.
The loot it has sucks (yay itemization) so it not dropping anything wont even matter. No big loss.

They should have just made this mob Heroic and a random spawn from the solo deathless watchers. There's no reason for it to even be epicx2.
Message Edited by Esar on 06-11-2006 08:02 AM

:smileyvery-happy:

To be in line with the rest of the quest, it should also be buggy and stop respawning so only one group can get the update per server reset.

Dd

I disagree with most things you have said Ishbu.

There are so many things that occured to me when I read through this thread that I don't know where to begin. My main problem is the argumentative devices used. People suggest that this one contested epic mob should be either instanced or triggerable and you (and others) take it to mean that they want to make every single quested mob instanced or triggerable. An interesting mixture of Slippery Slope and False Dilemma arguments. Both fallacies, neither an accepted argument.

Haraghur is an Epic tagged mob. This means that, quite often, he will be camped, just because he is tagged as epic. You yourself say (and this is in no way a personal attack) that you and your guild, and indeed any self respecting raiding guild would kill any Epic that they happen to see. This is not a problem, it is only to be expected, but it does cut down the number of spawns of this mob that could be taken down by others. Others that may need the quest update when neither you nor your guildmates do.

Haraghur drops a Fabled chest with decent regularity. This makes him an attractive target to kill. You yourself say that you could get far better loot in the many Epic dungeons, true, however Haraghur still drops a possibly Fabled, if people raiding for loot had the choice between hitting Haraghur before going to Labs and skipping by him what do you think they would choose? They would hit Haraghur then move on to Labs. Many raid guilds easily have enough manpower to hit both Haraghur and have a raid off in an instance or two. As you say, Haraghur is easily 1 groupable. It is not a choice between Haraghur and Labs/PoA/HoF/DT. Haraghur is in addition to those zones.

Haraghur has a very long respawn timer. Especially considering that he is so easy to kill. This means that any group of people that could kill him (and will kill him because of reasons stated above) are setting all quest carriers back by 2-3 days. Does this long respawn time lend anything to the challenge of the encounter? It is a neusance when you have enough time to watch for him, when your guildmates have the time to watch for him. When your guildmates are willing to spend hours waiting for him to spawn (presuming you found out when he was last killed and began waiting when his spawn window reopened). Merely a neusance. When, however, you and your guild do not have the time to camp a mob for as much as 10 hours it becomes a liability. Your quest update is then left to chance. Is he up when your guild has the firepower? Is he up when you are on? Is he up when your guild can actually get a raid organised fast enough to beat other wandering raids to him?

No quest should rely on luck like that. Maybe you will try to apply this to heroic nameds as you have done in the past (despite my complaints about the validity of such arguments). In that case, heroic quest named mobs do not have the same 'luck' issue linked to them. Sure it is luck that governs whether or not the named spawns, but a single moment of bad luck does not set your quest back by 2-3 days. Part of the challenge of killing named heroics is taht you should be able to fight your way to them and hold your own against any enemies that may attack you while you attempt to kill the named. The challenge of killing Haraghur is just that, killing him. The challenge of killing Haraghur is to kill an Epic encounter. The challenge is not to be able to get him to spawn. The challenge is not to have the perseverence to wait 10 hours. The challenge is to kill him.

For these reasons he should be made either instanced or triggerable. It would remove a massive and meaningless roadblock on the road to your own 'perfect' weapon.

Everytime there is a quest mob that isnt instnaced to triggerable they complain. You obviously dont pay very close attention to the various epic quests around or you would know that. Since your first paragraph showed you did not have a clue about what has been done previously, i quit reading as if I wanted to read fantasy literature, id go to the library.

Now you put words in their mouth? In this thread they have not asked for any mob other than Haraghur be instanced/triggerable. Their actions in other thread are of no consequence. Your treatment of this argument demonstrates a limited understanding of the science of argument. Each argument is handled as a discrete situation. Each argument is handled with no reference to any others in the past. To do otherwise is to "Poison the water", also a fallacy.

You have lost some respect with that reply, shouldn't imagine that you care though...

And with your reply, you just demonstrated that you can't grasp the larger concept. The arguements Ishbu and other's have brought up in this thread go to show that bigger picture.

However, arguments should be handled on an individual basis. If there is sufficient evidence to support an argument supporting instancing then it is not reasonable to bring seperate arguments into it. Each mob/zone is different. Each mob/zone is a different instance. Each should be handled as such.

You can use the current state of the game as evidence for your arguments, but not the image of the game that others might like to see.

That is the big picture. You need to look at each suggestion by these "moaners" individually and decide for yourself whether it is reasonable. You cannot begin to dismiss them out of hand simply because you do not like their other suggestions. Also you do not have to choose between accepting all of their ideas and accepting none. Previous arguments do not undermine the more recent arguments.