Dear Devs, the latest changes to critical heals from adornments is a sever blow to the guardian class. Every tank, but the guardian has ton of heals, or extended periods of essentially invulnerability in which they can still cast and do damage to their opponent. Please consider this issue, before the guardian is once again left behind for several expansions. It's bad enough that many monks and pally's have taken over the role of a guardian in raid main tank. Killing the guardians ability to go out and solo effectively, or PVP other tanks in similar gear, is going to ruin the game for us guardians.
Mordumor@Nagafen wrote: Guardians are to last remaining for making a resonable MT in progression content... all of the others are going to be sitting in Reckless stance topping the parse. Guardian's will always have a good healer or two in thier MT groups.
The biggest hurt to the guardian class is the prestige abilities for us to be offensive.. Since 2/3 of the left side is useless to a guardian that is dpsing. O you get more dps if you proc stone skins but you have to be hit to proc stoneskins.. They should have added a 5% - 10% chance to proc stone skins on Combat arts/spell used group wide. If we arn't tanking this offensive increase to reset some of our ca's and proc 5cb per stoneskin proced groupwide Give the guardian 5cb and the group 1cb per stoneskin proced.. Right now in its current form its useless specially on mobs that have 1 ae every 30 seconds we get possibly 3 proced stoneskins from the group. This would also make the buff more enjoyable and protect the group from one shots. or increase the duration on the stoneskins that proc on group members from 10 seconds to 40 seconds. Then our defensive side is just as bad our reset for defensive minded is rediculous that its linked to only one ability that has a recast of 50 seconds and the recast of defensive minded in raid mostly is 90 seconds. so we get at most 2 chances at 15% to reset the cast time.
hmmm... I don't seem to have a problem at all with my guardian main tanking in raids. With the set up of the MT group, my parse is still really high for a guardian. Aggro isn't an issue for me. And I have so many stoneskins that I can just time it right and stand still and absorb the most deadliest of things that bosses do. As far as high end raids and grouping goes, my guardian does great. (p.s. i never use recklessness)
Mohee wrote: I always find things like the bolded part amusing. In my guild I can MT raids just fine on my Guardian but my DPS sucks royally when compared to any other tank class that is along with us (SK's, Pally's and Monks specifically). The sad thing in my experience is that all of the classes can ALSO MT our raid targets just fine but they are putting out between 2-4x my DPS while doing it. They NEVER have to worry about losing aggro to the overzealous casters, etc. while I'm using my aggro snaps a lot to pull of those same folks. It is disheartening to say the least. Yes, I'm spec'd correctly - yes, I have hate gain adorns and AA's - yes, I'm transferring hate and/or having it sent to me -- I have compared my parses to other MT Guardians and we are doing the same amount of DPS so I know it isn't just me (I used to think it was but I have seen the parses). Guardians simply don't hold up in the current raiding game to other classes that can do the same job but bring a lot more oomph to the table.
Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote: Never said the class was unplayable - it just doesn't stack up to the other fighter classes that can do everything we bring to the table while DPS'ing their way to the top of parses. Only a sadist would make a Guardian as a new toon at this point in time.
I disagree... the class is pretty beast defensively and does everything I need it to. I'm not that worried about dps though, I guess if I was I'd play something else.
As far as the MT role goes, I'd say we're close to being tied with monks defensively speaking. The latest Game Update plus Prestige AA's certainly gave us a boost while taking monks down a notch. Hate generation in a proper MT group isn't a problem at all. Just get your Hate Mod to 100% and your MA to 600; the rest will take care of itself. The problem, as I see it, is that monks deal one hell of a lot more DPS. Now, as long as we're able to hold aggro, I don't really care whether the DPS potential of the guardian class is dismal. I do, however, care when an at least equally defensively strong class completely outshines us in the DPS department. If monks (and bruisers, for that matter) are supposed to kick as much backside in the damage output department as they currently do, then it follows that they shouldn't survive nearly as well as they do. You shouldn't be able to have it all; that isn't what class balance is all about. As for paladins ostensibly main-tanking as well as guardians, this isn't Sentinel's Fate. Given how hard AE's hit these days, brawlers or guardians are the MT's of choice.
Malevolencexx@Nagafen wrote: Again - my point isn't that we can't do the job of a tank, we certainly can. My issue is that other classes can do it equally well AND put out insane DPS while doing it which greatly diminishes the need or desire to have a Guardian MT things.
Karnoz@Splitpaw wrote: I have the 600 MA though my hate mod isn't 100 percent atm. As for a proper MT group - that is admittedly part of the problem I run into for various reasons.. I don't often get a true MT group built around me and getting some of the support classes to cast their buffs on me instead of themselves to up their own DPS is like pulling teeth. As for the MT Paladin thing I can only speak from my own personal experience and that is that I'm watching them (and an SK) pulling off the role without any issues at all. There is never even a question as to what would happen if I didn't make it to the raid that night because the Pally/SK does the role while kicking out insane DPS and not needing to have a perfect group built around them for hate generation. I agree with your point about being defensive AND putting out massive DPS - that is pretty much what I've been saying the issue is all along here. I don't personally care if I can put out the DPS, I'm not a DPS class. But either are the other tanks that are doing it AND able to tank without a problem. Who knows - I hear tell from my guildmates that there are some encounters further along in the content than we are which 'requires' a Guardian to tank it. I'll believe it when I see it though and I haven't seen it yet.
interesting 13 posts, but raid tanking was not the topic.... Would like to hear from a developer on whether they will boost the guardians survivability in pvp to bring it in line with other tank classes. The lost of critical heals puts us way back compared to other tanks. Ya, I could roll around with a healer all day, but no other tanks needs to do that. The guardians are fine in raids, but sad that many other tanks are replacing the guardians, once coveted role....
Mordumor@Nagafen wrote: Guardians on non PvP servers are going fine that i have seen in tanking. If you are having a problem with it IN PvP then you may want to take it to the PvP forums.
Silzin@Crushbone wrote: Unfortunately they like to redirect class specific issues back to this forum. In terms of tank abilitiy in raids the guard is fine. In terms of dps potential in raid when we are not tanking, we blow. In terms of PVP they've decided we're the best at getting dps put on us, and gave us the least ability to deal with it. You simply must have at least one healer tied to your hip if your going to pvp on the guard. Honestly, you're so much better off logging on something that can kill people than being a taunt based fighter that can't survive the hits that result from the taunts.
Guardians are fine in pvp when married with a competent healer or two + dps. We can actively out taunt every other tank in the game and have multiple defensive platform options both static and active that we can put on our group to reduce damge, take damage for them, intercept their damge as well as 2 passive avoidance transfers. These should all be getting used. We can sustain massive damage in a decent grp if we choose protection of our healers and taunting the enemy dps over being Rambo's. I have seen several guardians (other tanks too) that do not put their avoidance transfers, moderate or sentinel on the healers or even the dps - they just que up and run mindless in. Granted in pugs it can be frustrating because many pug healers do not cure or heal and run off in their own mindless direction like lemmings looking for a cliff to dive off but grp up with competent pvp healers and its a different story for guardians. Guardians are not screwed - we are the most balanced tanks in the game. The other tanks just need to be tweaked more with respect to pvp healing/dps output. We were never meant to be great solo pvpers - we are a grp platform tank.
