how about removing the Armored block chance and fo 5 points we get our weapon damage increase while we are in def stance like the crusaders get in any stance, that would help close some of the gap
Atan@Unrest wrote: I can't see why is this applicable to Guardians only. Basically every tank class will now load up on Stonewill gear and survive just fine. Or am I missing something?
Britty wrote: That works in groups.. having all 3 stonewills up when a huge physical ae is inc, isnt going to save you most the time. Stonewill is pwn for groups, its just good on raids, since normally you only have one mob hitting you to trigger it, and that mob hits hard enough to burn it up with every swing.
Why the QQ over this? If they stated the crap wasn't working right and fixed it you're not getting nerfed...you're getting put where you should be. Suck it up. If guards become viable I might actually finish leveling her up...(refuse to betray to Zerker, she's been a guard since like april of '05) It would be nice to see defensive crap actually mean something again, since it seems SoE refuses to pull the ole head out of the buttcheeks and realize DPS is the Guard's failing point.
From doing some AA tests, on test. Looks like we get the best gain form dropping the Str line all together, and going for the end line in Wis. Kind of sucks that we need to put 12 useless AA's in the line to get the end item. The DPS gain, and loseing the penalties on the stances, seams to help more than taking the whole agression line.
I may have come to late to the game to add some suggestions, but it never hurts to try. 'I am a wall of steel. No harm shall come to those I defend.' The Guardian is the archor of any group of adventures, providing leadership and protection for their allies. That is what is says when you make a guardian, but I don't think that is true. No harm shall come to those I defend? I can't keep aggro from those I defend. I provide protection for my allies? I have such weak taunts, so low DPS how can I protect these people? I think Guardians should have the best taunts around, best group taunts, AE taunts, single target taunts. I'm not saying I should have the best aggro control since damage is a huge part of that. These new changes are trying to fix that, and I think its a good start. Here are some changes I would like to also see: Warrior Tree: Wisdom line: Unshakable needs to be increased. At lvl 90 with 10 points in the tree it should be around 900 Mitigation (about the Mitigation of one armor piece). You do say we are a wall of steel. Belly smash needs 1 of 2 things. Either make it so you the mob does not need to be knocked down or increase the mitigation reduction. Giving us more knockdowns would be nice too. Like make slam a knockdown also. Or make it work on stunned oppenents too. Intelligence line: Relentless Assault needs to have the ability cast time reduction like the crusaders do. Yes its less useful for warriors, but it helps with Guardian AE attacks and defensive buffs. Why do crusaders get this over warriors? Guardian Tree: Slaughtering Line: Each skill should be higher, instead of 6% per rank I think it should be 10% per rank and 8 % per rank for Taunting Blow. This will help slightly with our DPS. I just think Guardians needs to be better at single target DPS. We should be better than Paladins in this category, but not better than AE DPS than a Paladin. We are both Defensive tanks, we should do about the same damage. I haven't done the math, but I don't think this will be a huge increase in DPS (around 4%?) Aggression Line: There is 2 ways to provide protection for your allies, do enough DPS so they can't rip off of you or have high enough Taunts so allies can't rip from you. Increase the taunt value of provoke from 7% to at least 10%, shout from 6% to 8-9%. If you don't want Guardians to do high DPS we need the best taunts in the game. Rally to Combat: I guess its fine, some people seem to like, I really don't, so I guess that sounds balanced. For me instead of increasing the duration I would rather see increase in taunt value. Do 5-8% taunt increase. Aggressive Entry: This is useless 80% of the time. My suggestion is to increase from 3% to 10-15% per rank or after pointing 5 point into that ability chance the % from 80% to 50%. As the way it is now I would spend the points into Enhance: Taunts than Aggressive Entry. Why would I put points into something that works 20% of the time for a 3% increase per rank? New Plant: This needs to have a HIGH Taunt value. If it doesn't do any damage it needs to start at 10m range, why make an AA that increases it? It basically forces you to get that AA. Instead make Enhance: Plant increase its taunt value with the increase in duration. Taunting Assault: This ability sucks, 2 second cast time? You serious? I make a joke with my friends that this ability is my anti-taunt, since by the time it casts the dps has ripped from me. This needs to be the same cast speed as taunting blow. Plan and simple. Hopefully Xelgad reads these ideas and can work some one them in. To provide protection for allies we need to do enough damage and high enough taunts to do that job. You placed that as the class description please let us live up to it.
Another Idea I have to help Guardians, but also keep in the theme that Guardians provide protection for their allies. Thiis new ability would be added to Hold the Line. (It could be a stand alone skill also) Make Hold the Line a group buff. The orginal ability will stay and be the same, but added to that to the grooup members is a reactive damage and taunt. This would be simular to a wizards ColdShield. A mob hits one of your group members and it gets damaged and extra taunt value, but it credited to the Guardian. I rationalize this by what it says on the Guardian creation screen. 'No Harm with come to those who I defend.' If something causes harm to an ally the Guardian makes them pay for it. The damage increases hate value, the taunt increases hate value thus causing the mob to attack the Guardian faster and stop attacking group members. One way to help provide protection is by making a mob pay for attacking group members. I don't think this is overpowering because if the Guardian keeps aggro this does nothing, but for damage and taunt value I think it should be along the lines of Grave Sacrament. A Guardian has nothing like this ability and here is a way to get it, but its not as good since it has to hit an ally. For a raid I think this ability should be affected by AoE's, so it will work on your group. This gives more damage output for the Guardian and more taunting if his group stay in for the AoE and doesn't joist. Obivously the numbers need to be worked out to be balanced. I just think this in a unique idea that will help out a Guardian provide protection for their allies.
I play a guardian but he's not my main but im thinking this more death pervents? I mean zerkers have 2 of them one of them maintained and the only one guardians have is unyielding will. Trust me since SF AA it's actually worth using (since u dont die 2 seconds after you use it) but, thats the only one we have not to mention it's not a maintained one. It could possibley wear off before it even gets used and depending on how much AA you have into it it could be awile before it refreshes. Not saying that could solidifie the class totally just my sense in it. Seems everyother tank has more pervents then a guardian does.
The arguement is that block + tos makes up for the gap on death prevents. Thats also the arguement that makes up for the tps/dps gap as well. IMO, the arguement is being spread thin.
With the new changes to auto attack with ae and flurry working on the offhand guardians will need more help with our DPS while tanking. If we have to use a shield while tanking and have some scouts with us that gap will be wider in DPS. WE don't need a lot more DPS, but we need more o to be on par with other tanks. Perhaps we should get the idea out of our heads about defensive and offensive tanks to more of AE damage tanks and ST damage tanks. SoE wants all tanks be able to tank everything and I am fine with that, but in turn let all tanks do damage. So for plate tanks AE damage should be Zerker > SK > Paladin > Guardian ST damage Guardian > Paladin > SK > Zerker But the difference between the them wouldn't be that great on the ST damage. AE damage I wouldn't care if the Guardian was farther behind. I feel all tanks should be able to hold AE aggro, then how to balance them would be defensive ultility (saves, group protection), raidwide/group ultility, AE damage vs ST damage. Of course with the current system I don't see this ever happening, but its fun to dream.
No reason why a guardian would make more dps than a zerk or a SK on ST. ST dps shoud be Zerk > Sk > Guard > Paly, but gap should be close enough so our taunts and procs can make the difference.
Xelgad, I don't know if you are following the thread on eq2flames about this topic, but here is my suggestion: One idea I had would be to take the notion of "Offensive Stance" and "Defensive Stance" and apply them innately to the Berseker and Guardian respectively. IE: a Guardian is innately in "Defensive Stance" (with no offensive penalty, but massive Defensive buffs - 10-15% block chance, 15% mit buff, etc), and Berserkers are innately in "Offensive Stance" (with no defensive penalty, but massive offensive buffs - 10-15% crit bonus, 1-2% flurry, damage proc, etc). And for the rest of my post, here it is.
the least they could have done was give us a free aa respec so we dont have to pay to get rid of some of the garbage they gave us
schizolic wrote: I'm just glad I still had one left from somewhere before. That being said - I know you get a respec after you betray to zerker... maybe they just figured we would all use that one.
Emlar@Storms wrote: Well ideally you are right it should be what you said (with Zerker and SK really close), but since Zerker and SK defensively are in many ways better than a guardian, a guardian should be doing more ST damage if that is the case. That would be a reason why. But I think the way we all want it would be as you said for ST damage: Zerk >= SK > Guardian > Paladin, where Paly and Guard are the better defensive tank with better survivability than Zerk and SK, but that just isn't the case now. If SoE wants all tanks to be able to tank end-game content, then you need all tanks to be able to DPS closely with the difference in who is better AE vs ST damage. Oh well just kinda running my mouth. I just wish they had some one playing all tank classes to help balance them better.
Xelgad wrote: So the first smalll fix is in, and it does seem that by AA speccing for it I can hold aggro in non-optimal groups most of the time, even with 2 T1 DPS classes, even in defensive stance. Group tanking is fun again. Well done. (It is still not as easy as on my SK but that would be excessive). So what are your plans for the next step? What do you want to be "the driving force that gets Guardians into raids" if not utility? Peter
Umm to be a tank in raid its not about your class its about how you play that class. They could give guardians 100% base increase to auto attack but if you suck at playing your class guess what you still wont get in the raid. Only problem most guards have in raids is other tank classes.. So lets change offensive to proc 4.0 a minute 5k detaunt along with changign all taunts to detaunts. Defensive stance Increases all taunts by 30% and procs 5k taunt 6.0 a minute.. This way on single targets off tanks don't have to worry bout ripping agro from anyone as if they need to take agro they can hop into defensive and walla.. then they can also take the refresh and reuse off of stance switching. I'd call this balanced.
Terron@Splitpaw wrote: Don't be too surprised if thats the end of the balancing excercise. I can keep hate in raids fine, but only if I have plenty of hate proccing gear, charm from cella, library belt etc. My guild is by no means top end and the raidforce is getting better geared all the time, which can only mean more dps which in turn means headaches for me Like many guards I'm not that fussed about dps, sure it would be nice but we just dont have it while in defensive stance with a shield and I can't see us getting any help with it in the future. If I wanted to be a parse *****, I'd have rolled another tank a long time ago. Another major concern for us Guardians at the moment seems to be the new 'triple attack' thats just been put on test. This could mean major problems for us holding aggro from high dps scouts in raids. Sure it will benefit us slightly but not that much while we have a shield in the other hand. Increased raid dps can only mean trouble for us to be honest. Over the past few weeks I've thought seriously about betraying to a zerker, simply to hold aggro better via dps. It would be a real shame if I had to resort to such drastic measures as my guard is, and always has been my main since launch. I havent always enjoyed playing the class over the years the same as a lot of you guys but I've stuck with it and learned to live with its failings. However if something isn't done about our tps behind a shield, I really don't see any other option if I'm to retain my MT role within my guild. It seems silly that in raid I can get my hate buffed to 100% if I want to, but as we all know there isn't much point with the 50% cap. My suggestions to Xelgad are as follows: Uncap our hate mod, via aa's if need be Make Hold the Line have a chance to proc when we INFLICT damage as well as when we block or recieve damage. These two simple changes would increase our TPS behind a board more than enough in my opinion and I can't see too many complaints about 'overpowered guards' in that respect, after all it's not going to put us at the top of the parse which is what most of the overpowered arguments boil down to if you ask me.
