Guardians next Xpac

Shasroh wrote:

Rahatmattata wrote:

I think they meant http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Signet_of_Betrayal but that also does not change threat positions.

Shasroh wrote:

I agree with your assessment of Recapture, but I am completely missing your logic about troubadors. How does the existence of Alin's negate the validity of a group form of Moderate?

I am not refering to jewel of animosity i wear one normally as does he. I am refering to the signet of betrayel http://lootdb.com/eq2/item/1293663139
\aITEM 1293663139 688090205:Signet of Betrayal\/a

if you read the item it increases threat when you are not on top and lowers when you are on top of the hate. Most people have noticed it seems to bump positions as well. maybe it doesn't anymore I don't keep up with it all that much.
Agro control tho most DPS will disagree is not fully the job of the tank, there is only so much a tank can do. Things like Grave sacrement are nice to help with the agro, but keep in mind it isn't constantly up. Reinforcement can be just as good, and actually can generate more raw hate than gravesacrement, as GS is only hate positions if i remember right AFTER the initial hate from attack. Hate positions don't do anything if your already on top of the hate. Reinforcement on the other hand is great for when your approaching the point of losing hate if you couple it with defensive minded and go through your CAs, it will jump you way up in threat and prevent anyone from ripping off of you. I think the main issue is that guardians are flat out harder to play than a crusader, which personally i enjoy the challenge of it. But to play either to their potential you have to be a good player.
In reference to troubadors the reason I say that is because alins is one of the nice things about troubs. Give us group hate reduction and you are partially taking away one of the few things troubs still do well simply by letting another class do it as well. We need to think of how to improve our class without taking away from another class or making them less desierable. Sure troubs have other things that are nice too, but lets face it they are a dwindeling population as well. Moderate is fine as is.
I still believe a good place to start with guardians is changing recapture (tho i doubt this will change as it hasnt since we had it, heck it doesn't even tell us how many positions it changes the other fighters!) It is a useless ability for most guardians out there. I almost transmuted the master version, but scribed simply to get closer to being fully mastered.

Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:

It doesn't. But a group moderate highly reduces the usefullness of the troub dehate song.

Lethe5683 wrote:

The existence of a group moderate would not reduce the usefulness of the troubador spell. It would simply make it less necessary. I thought the idea was to reduce dependence on specific classes?

Grumpy_Warrior_01 wrote:

I'm just explaining why Shasroh thinks a group moderate would recude the usefullness of the troub dehate.

Terron@Splitpaw wrote:

Sorry for the uber-long delay in response. I've been busy doing ... other things. I honestly haven't grouped much with brawlers in TSO. The issue with guardians is that they don't seem to hold AoE agro well. I can think of a couple of runs through Veksar where the guardian insisted on pulling multiple mobs, and then couldn't keep agro on all of them. Spores + Winds of Healing + Healstorm = dead warden when you're trying to keep the whole group up because the tank can't hold aoe agro. If the tank is going to try to pull a whole room, then he/she needs to be able to hold agro. DPS can wait to start casting until the tank gets agro. Healers can't, because if we wait, the tank dies.
Slightly OT, it's nice that crusaders aren't the redheaded stepchildren anymore. I hate to say it, but ... I'm actually sort of getting a kick out of guardians and zerkers complaining. Crusaders had it bad for so long, while warriors laughed and lived it up. Now that the other shoe has fallen, it's not so much fun playing a 2nd rate tank class, I don't think.

A few random thoughts. I don't have time to chase down the links so either take me at my word or ignore me.
1. This thread seems to be centered around aggro generation. I consider it a very safe bet that aggro generation for all fighters is going to get a big boost. I consider this a very good thing and long overdue.
2. From offhand comments made in Fan Faire I think even SoE knows they overdid it with SKs. I think SKs are going to be taken down a notch. Remember that before TOS SKs were considered almost as pathetic as brawlers. They just overdid it.
3. There have been some comments by SoE that brawlers are going to get a little love. Better late then never I suppose. I doubt they're going to be the new op fighter though. That concept is just too wierd and foreign to believe. If you see a top raid guild advertising "Recruiting bruiser for MT position. Other classes need not apply." we'll know the world is ending. Either that or check your calendar because the date is probably April 1.
4. As for the above post, a well geared brawler with appropriate heals and buffs can tank pretty much any group content and some raid content. My bruiser has tanked all sorts of things in the last few months (after I got my myth, 200 AAs, and T3 armor) on those relatively rare situations I'm given a chance. I think a general rule of thumb is brawlers require a tier better level of gear to do the same job as a plate tank. That makes brawlers with substandard gear truly pathetic whereas any other class with substandard gear is just substandard. Most people who don't play with well geared brawlers aren't aware that they can tank anything which isn't green which makes it hard for all brawlers. I had to tank Lower Guk and a couiple VP nameds before even my own guild would allow that maybe I wasn't a total waste.

Gilasil wrote:

I wouldn't hold my breath.

Gilasil wrote:

An aggro boost, while needed, is not gonna be a simple affair. The issue stems a lot from the fact that the aggro abilities through spells and AA's between all the classes are extremely varied and not well distributed. Sk's got a huge break and were revamped so much that they changed entire lines to be hate-mongering monsters. Paladins generated most of their hate via Amends. Gaurdians lowered the hate of other members and had their taunts, and zerkers had their aoe dps and taunts. Brawlers in general had and still have the least tools to work with, with only a couple of taunts and a couple snap-aggro abilities. In order for them to get things right, they have to revisit each class and re-think what the class does to generate its aggro, and redesign the abilities and AA's to reflect that.