Guardians next Xpac

Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:

On the money. Well stated Gaylon.
For me its not even tuning crusaders down any, but bringing other fighters up. If crusaders are pulled down some then all fighters will stink.
True dps classes are so far ahead of guards and the other fighters in what they can do that bringing guards and others up to par will not be weakening anyone.
Crusaders were on the back burner for years and I totally understand that. To me crusaders are doing what a tank should do as a tank. What crusaders have are other areas where they excel in where guards and even zerkers cannot compete.

Tesar@Unrest wrote:

This whole paragraph is what is completely annoying. Why should you want a Guard as OT? You already stated, just like most raiders, that you would want a Guard as MT. So if they get the niche of MT why should they get to be able to compete for the OT spot as well. That is where the balance comes in. Other tanks are better OT's specifically because of the agro they have over Guards. It is not for DPS, it is because they are expected to be able to hold multiple mobs with most likely the lesser ideal set-up that a MT has. So, that is EXACTLY the reason that Guards should not get the agro control the other 3 plate tanks have. DPS is agro. It is the means with which the other 3 plate tanks get to have MORE agro. It boggles my mind that you guys cannot see exactly what would happen if the tank with the highest survivability also had just as good agro as the other tanks. Or, more accurately, you do see what I am talking about and instead would rather see Guards OP'd again so that they get to be the best at everything. Awfully greedy.
I already said I would give up my DPS as long as my agro generation still exceeded a Guards by a large amount. The reason is because I know what is needed to ensure the other 3 plate tanks get that OT spot over Guards.
Going into the realm of heroic. Here is a fact...the beginning of the level cap Guards rocked it out. They were further into the curve survivability wise than the other tanks. Mobs hit other tanks a lot harder. Even the start of TSO the hard instances like PoF Guards were a good choice to take because they could take the hits better...people weren't geared as much, healers couldn't heal as much, DPS couldn't DPS as much...so like always that bulky ST tank was a good choice. The end of the xpac things get flip flopped at the heroic level. Healers can heal a ton more, DPS can DPS a ton more, all tanks are geared up more and further into the curve. Heroic content has become so easy that Sorcerors and Rogues can tank most zones. Here is a good test for you. Go take a full T1 shard geared group and see what tank does the best in PoF. Hands down the Guard will because he will be easier to keep up, agro will hardly be much of a problem, and the healers will be thankful. But we like to forget about the first half of the xpac.
On the raid level because mobs are such high levels basically it never changes. It takes a raid a lot of gear for it to become fluff targets. Example, we use a Guard MT on Miragul...we have killed him a few times and he is still a challenge. The fact that me (SK) and the Zerk have better agro tools means we get to play the role of OTs grabbin the adds. Now you tell me...if a Guard can have just as much agro control pullin those adds and holding them what tank do you think would be brought. The one that might get a little more DPS off (if you guys haven't had encounters like this let me tell you, tank DPS is not important) or the one that has better survivability?
If Guards get their wish and have just as good agro control than you would get your wish....and that is definitely not what the other 3 plate tanks want. We really don't want to take a bench seat so that Guards can be the best MT and also OT.

Bruener I honestly feel you have a very good grasp of how this game works. Much better than I prolly ever will. I am not in total disagreement with you either.
I see your point but not one hundred percent.
Where I am having my issuse again are how come sk's, paladins, and zerkers can be so effective at both raid and heroic, but guardians cannot.
Even if a guardian did one point of damage to the target but holds the aggro would that be any different than an sk doing 5k damage and holding aggro?
Not asking that guards do 5k damage. Just threat of any sort other than increasing guard dps.
If it is survivability vs aggro then for chanters it should be utility vs dps yet chanters can still dump out massive damage and have the best utility in game.
I believe that no class should have excellent survival combined with dps, utility, and what ever else is out there. I still think that the margin of survival between the sk and guardian isn't as far off as it was pre ROK.
I just think in todays game it is more complex than just survivability vs aggro.

Aull wrote:

Guardians have trouble holding agro because right now threat is 'broken' per se. As has been stated prior, the only reliable means to hold agro right now is DPS. Since Guardians have less DPS than other classes, they have a harder time holding agro. Conversely, since SK's do a massive amount of AoE DPS, SK's can hold agro handily. Until taunts are increased in effectiveness at least 200% - 300%, you probably won't see any viable means of holding hate other than DPS.

Bruener wrote:

Don't you see a contradiction there? Give up aggro to get aggro generation? Anyway, if you're mostly concerned about the OT spot, leave guard area taunts as-is. Even you suggested a blue taunt, which they've never had and no guard's been asking for. It's your AE aggro tools that get you the preferred position as OT since you can grab multiple encounters as needed, which guardians struggle to do.
When I was playing MT, I preferred an AE type OT for exactly that reason. Another guardian's ok at OT, but if there're multiple encounters, or even just multiple mobs if there's a lot of AE dps in the raid, a second guardian's not the best choice. Survivability's usually not the primary attribute needed in that slot.
Boost the HtL numbers to keep the mobs that're hitting the guard on them, which is only really useful in heroic content anyway, and make the taunts stronger for the purpose of balance with the DPS of the group and maybe a little less "ideal build" necessity for raids. That still doesn't make a guardian the best OT, it just shifts numbers around a bit.
Anyway, if Aeralik's gone, who knows what the plans are anymore.

Kasar wrote:

Ok, so what you basically said is not what the others in this thread are asking for. They are asking for the same amount of hate management as the other classes. Specifically the complaint comes from the heroic level with multiple mobs. They are asking for the SAME agro as the OT tanks. That will basically cause the other 3 plate tanks to take a back seat.
The 3 things I suggested would go a long long ways to help Guards through heroic content without giving them the same hate management that the other 3 plate tanks have to have in order to make the likely choices for the OT spot.
Here is the thing, once again it just shows that people are asking for a lot more than they need. Those that claim the class is broken when the fact is that all Guards need are a few good tweaks and things will be much better. A group moderate would solve most of the Guards agro problems alone. It would also be considered extra utility to protect the MT group. Having a slightly higher taunt crit bonus on guards...something like .08 with 8 AA sunk in would mean larger taunts with the taunt crit mechanic...but not OP'd larger. Than finally a long recast true AE taunt. Not something huge like gibe but something that is enough to grab mobs at the heroic level...which is basically where the "problem" is for Guards. So these 3 things help out quite a bit at the heroic level without giving Guards the same agro management that the other tanks have. This is what I mean by a few tweaks to really help out in one area...because in the other area Guards are not hurting. Guards should not have the same agro management other tanks have. Guards should not be a competitor for the OT spot as well as being the best MT.

Good post Bruener. I think the group moderate is an excellent idea.

Bruener wrote:

What is interesting to me is that currently at my level of progression we have had far more success using our SK at MT and me as OT. We both are fully capable of serving either role but when its all said and done.......things go smoother and faster they way we do it. Especially considering we rarely if ever have ideal class makeups for our raids.
This just leads me to believe that the problem with fighter balance is actually that the balance is not uniform across all levels of progression.

Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:

I would recommend making sure the raid build is designed with the proper MT set-up. That is probably the first group you should build in a raid to make sure it is consistent with what is needed. After that than you honestly need to step up and take that MT spot back. I am not sure why the SK is being used at the moment unless you are still just fighting the first couple mobs in ToMC and Palace. The sooner your raid realizes that you should be in the MT spot and they start practicing that set-up the better of they will be. This will allow the SK to do the job he is designed to do better. Grabbing adds and holding them while the rest of the raid burns them down and keeps you alive. He will probably have to do it with a slightly less optimized set-up since again MT group is priority.
This change will make a big difference down the road. Of course this is assuming that you guys are equally geared.

guards arent half as broken as everyone seems to think. Yeah, we need some hate gain love at the group level but if you know your toon, which you should after 80 levels, then you should know the timers on your taunts and rescues. You can tab through groups of mobs, laying down the right taunts on the right ones and be able to control groups in the heroic TSO instances. I would recommend learning the ins and outs of your toon before calling it broken. I run heroic TSO with my guard all the time and I dont have trouble holding agro on group pull situations.

I'd like to join this conversation with a question.

Are half of you all Trolls?!

Learn the fighter classes before opening your mouth about another classes abilities. Especially when you're DEAD WRONG.

Some "Corrections"

Death March is not a Threat generator, the only threat you get from it were to be the same as a druid casting an AoE HoT on the group. You're thinking of GRAVE SACRAMENT. Which is an AoE threat and position jumper which is already nerfed on the Beta test. ( Also Paladins got their ability Holy Ground which is a similar move nerfed in the Beta Test as well)

Also the question I like to pose everyone when they cry about Shadowknight is... "What did TSO give them?"

People can never answer that question. I'll do it for you, it gave their AoE's Purpose...they had their AoEs BEFORE TSO. The one and only defining feature really is Furor, which if you need to rely on a 15sec riposte/parry you are a bad tank TBH.

I have a Shadowknight, Paladin, Monk, and Berserker I really like Tanking. I don't pigeon hole myself in the "Us against them" tank mentallity. Instead I wanted to know what makes all the Tanks different.

I can tell you in Equal T3 Gear in terms of Tanking performance, Health&Mitigation Paladin -> Guardian -> Serker -> SK.
Threat Generation Paladin -> Guardian -> SK -> Serker. ( If you don't believe this, group with a real DPS pushing 15-30k don't base your opinion off how well you hold threat off casuals parsing 4-8k)

My SK is not my Main Tank. I've done all the TSO group content and x2's with it. Fully geared, and I won't even bother with it unless its a Weak TSO I want to just plow through in 10mins or leveling up alts for friends. If I want to really "tank" you can find me on the Paladin or Berserker.

RottenApple82 wrote:

it seems you sir are the ignorant troll
also after looking you up, your eq2 players page says you dont even have a guardian? now thats impressive, (benifit of the doubt here we will assume you have a second account with a second beserker that isnt level 13 )also should be noted
Aug 16, 2008 was the day you started an sk you stopped *aug 31st* and didnt start playing him again until december 14th were you leveled him 20 levels in 2 weeks (acually faster then the levels before) finally hitting 80 january, you sir picked up a flavor of the month class, and are now defending it .

FURTHER MORE you claim the paladin as your main, even though your sk has 4x more playtime and was created first

Someone said "The problem with the tank balance is that it's not uniform across all levels of progression" and that absolutely right. The guild I am in has killed just about everything in TSO with the Exception of Miragul. We use a Guardian as MT and a SK as OT. There is nothing at all wrong with Guardians. Our MT is a awesome tank and does extremely well. Our MT is just about the best tank I have seen in this game. I see more of an issue in balance between SKs and Paladins. SKs have become a lot better than paladins in almost every situation. Since that is the case most paladins are betraying or have betrayed and only those that are really dedicated to the class stick with the paladin right now. I don't see Guardians losing the MT spot to any other tank unless they are not as good of a player or not as well geared as the SK/Paladin in the raid. IMHO(everyone had one), Paladins need the most help. I don’t believe in nerfs so I think they should be brought up to the same level as SKs.

RottenApple82 wrote:

I've been playing the same crusader for five years. I betrayed him from paladin to SK at lvl 69, then two years later, betrayed back to paladin at lvl 80. I think you're dead wrong, especially about Death March. The agro-generating effect isn't as powerful at 80 as it was at 70, for sure, but back during EoF, Death March was a god-like snap-agro tool. Death march is so powerful because it massively buffs the entire group. SK's are much more powerful now than they were prior to TSO. I'm not sure how you don't see that, or how you can rank SK's almost deadlast among tanks. I refuse to group with guardians when I'm on my warden, because I end up pulling agro a lot especially in aoe settings. SK's I don't have any trouble, and their ability to self-heal makes healing for SK's very, very easy. Paladins? I'll group with them if I have to. Zerkers and guardians? No thanks. From my point of view as a healer, warriors come in dead last. The only time I'll group w/ warriors is if there's no one else available.

Sorry but I just had to comment on this. Are you saying a Paladin parses as well as a ShadowKnight... seriously? Honestly now, a Paladin played to his potential can put out some decent numbers but that is when played exceptionally well. A SK however can mash buttons and outparse both a Guardian and a Paladin. People say Paladins have an overpowered hate ability in "Amends" but that is just not true. Understand that Amends siphons 40% of the hate of one person in your group. Hopefully that one person in your group is parsing the highest so you keep hate. Paladin DPS is not very good and paladin taunts are of a lower value than warriors. If you think that a Paladin without amends putting out low dps with small taunts is gonna keep hate think again. I personally think (and hopefully paladins will not be pissed off at me for saying this) that Paladins could give up amends in return for a DPS boost and taunt value boost. I think this does 2 things for Paladins: 1) no more amends crutch. Hate gain will depend on the Paladins skills not someone you invite into your group's skills and 2) a 3rd tank could fit easier into a raid if dps is decent. No need to feel like you are wasting a slot. I think the same to some extent holds true for Guardians. They need a dps boost.... A DW guardian putting out mean dps would be a good option for a 3rd tank or other raid spot without the raid leader feeling hes wasting a slot. As it stands now when it comes to raiding you need ~6 healers, 12 dps classes(coercers and illusionists do good damage too so they go here) 4 utility classes (bards) and 2 tanks unless something where you absolutely need 3 like Zarrakon there is almost no reason to include more then 2. More inclusion == happier player base.

WTB reduced casting time on Tower of Stone.

Bruener wrote:

If I wrote what I feel about that capitalized satetment this response would be deleted.
All fighters are supposed to be able to tank roughtly equally - stated by SoE many times.
If guards are only good for raids as you say then they are broken.
I created my guard in DoF, because the description said he would have the best survivability. That description was wrong. Solo guards have the worst survivability of all fighters as well as the worse DPS. Still guard soloing has improved from when I was unable to kill blue no arrow solo mobs.
TSO boosted other fighters tanking abilities but not guards, presumably with the aim of making them closer to guards as raid MTs, and succeeded. Guards may still have a slight edge, but it is much less than before.
Guards can tank heroic instances with the right support classes, or if high DPS classes do not mind dying. But being so dependant on others to do your job is not fun, and that lack of fun is why I consider guards to need a fix.
I also have a SK, created during KoS. He has just reached 80. At 79 I tanked DF and Scion with him, and held aggro more easily than I could with my guard (who has his myth and a mixture of T2 and T3 armour). My SK's survivability at 79 as a tank was lower than my guard, but he got a big boost at 80 (and not from gear). I think he holds aggro too easily. It would be more fun if it was more of a challenge.
I know many people who rolled guards considered giving up heroic and solo capability to be an acceptable tradeoff for being the best raid MT. It seems that some want that to continue. But SoE clearly intends that other fighters (at least the plate ones) should be pretty close, or even as good, as raid MTs, and given all the complaints there were about guards being so good in RoK I understand why. But then guards need to be close to as good as other plate fighters as heroic tanks and soloers.

Elhonas@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Where do brawlers come?
No way a warden would be pulling aggro from my guard if there was a dirge and a coercer buffing me, unless they insist on healing before I have got aggro.

Aull wrote:

Group moderate does nothing to generate aoe hate. A warlock with 30% hate reduction is still generating aoe hate at an exponentially higher rate than a guardian.
If you don't provide a means for aoe hate, provide content that begs for aoe dps, the guardian class as a whole remains pidgeon holed into MTing and little more.

I normally don't participate in these discussions, but figured I would throw my 2 cents in. I didn't read through all 16 pages because honestly it seemed to be what every other guardian is **** SK is OP thread comes out to.

Let me first say I have played a Guardian since beta and continued to do so over the last 5+ years. I have a 73 sk which is by no means a main nor will ever be over my guardian. Our raid OT is a SK.

SKs are not OP. They have some great abilities and the current heroic tier content caters to their class design. Much like ROK did for guardians. This is simply a failure to design a variety of content with both encounters and single target. I have grouped with paladins and SKs that my gimpy troubador has pulled aggro off of.

Guardians need very few tweaks. Played well they can generate agro fine, I often end up in groups without bards or enchanters and only sometimes an assassin. Heck even running woe MTing without any bards, our SK pulls aggro sometimes but he also normally wears the ring from SOH that increases your hate positions. We can maintain AOE aggro just fine, and i personaly enjoy the AOE fights, specing for agility and learning how to position and time auto attacks with your combat arts as well proper use of changing targets to maintain agro on an encounter isn't terribly hard. However Guardians do have a bad wrap of being awful tanks.

If your warden is pulling aggro off a guardian, kick em from group and get someone else, any tank losing agro to a healer for more than a split second on a body pull isnt worth their slot in a group. I have healers who hate healing other tank classes because they spike too much where as I tend to be rather steady.

I don't think group moderate is the answer, otherwise you are taking away one of the things troubadors do for groups. However an ability like recapture which unless your in a raid with a memwiping mob or you are the OT in a raid it is useless. You don't have multiple fighters in your heroic groups on a normal basis if at all. Turning that into a longer recast encounter type rescue would be more ideal. Put it on the same length timer as Grave Sacrement and make it an encounter rescue. Adding something to our encounter taunt like a mental debuff (for less taunt resists) would be nice as well. Making it so Cry of the warrior works on most mobs in TSO (would help both zerker and guardian) instead of having mobs be immune to it more or less.