Guardian Revamp?

Discussion in 'Fighters' started by Wakanash, Sep 18, 2013.

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  1. lulz New Member

    the problem with giving guard superior survivability is that other tanks have to die for it to be useful and if other tanks die then they are useless.
    what guards need is some fun factor along with fixing their dumb prestige and single target damage dominance over the other tank classes. flurry isn't the answer imo since you can already get that pretty high as is.
  2. Atan Well-Known Member

    I know, I've been testing it in beta. Its decent and works to address the issue, and while the DPs potential is decent, good luck not getting enough agro to cause the new reckless to drop off a warrior.
  3. Silzin Active Member

    So did they finally get rid of Reckless Stance for all tank?
  4. Atan Well-Known Member

    Sadly no. They now make it suspend / cancel on taking damage. Some classes just getting hit suspends it, other classes can take hits up to X% of their health and not suspend.

    The idea is your aoe tanks can OT/tank adds in raids in reckless stance, but single target tanks can tank almost nothing without the buff dropping.
  5. Silzin Active Member

    from what you said i am not sure i would like it, but i will look on beta and see before i pass judgment.

    Edit: also they need to do something to help with reducing Hate MORE.
  6. Atan Well-Known Member

    Honestly, I'm not a big fan of it either, but I'm trying to remain neutral on it for now.
  7. Estred Well-Known Member

    How far does it scale? Currently I know a Guardian can get 30-40 Flurry. If it converts into the 60-80 Range potentially it has use. Also if the "Flurry" endline in the Guardian Tree actually was worth taking 3% isn't much. Given stats now 10% would make more sense.

    I'm neutral to the idea myself I really want to see Reversal and Arena Endurance addressed. Along with Champion's Interception, which needs a PvE Rework to be useful.
    Daalilama likes this.
  8. Daalilama Well-Known Member

    Have to agree with this whole statement (I mean 3% flurry as an aa choice is kinda weaksauce at this stage of the game). Reversal and Arena Endurance have needed a serious fix for so long (still amazed at how much input the community put forth for the character revamp only to be completely ignored).
  9. Xaxationlorex New Member

    As some one who lives prettty much in reckless durring raids, can you point me to a link or something to this change? This sounds, well not good, some fights it will drop just because, and that dosen't sound remotely fair, or fun.
  10. Quabi Active Member

    He's talking about ToV beta. You'll have to check it out tomorrow. Few people were thrilled with the change, but it's probably not nearly as bad as you're thinking, especially as a Shadowknight.
  11. Estred Well-Known Member

    Well Reckless has been not functioning properly since it's implementation. They are trying to remove "tanking in reckless" it's not meant to be a DPS boost while tanking, only while not tanking. So this is a fix that should have been done a long time ago.
  12. Atan Well-Known Member

    Actually, from my perspective they're further enabling tanking in reckless, just for some classes, particularly in aoe situations.

    Currently our SK only uses reckless in pure dps situations, but now he'll be able to use it most of the time. If the adds he's on don't hit for more than 20% of his health in a swing, then he'll stay in the stance. If he gets hit for 50% in a hit the stance will auto cancel without the penalty and he can resume offensive/defensive.

    Currently our OT (zerker) almost never uses reckless as he's got to be able to recover if I go down. With the changes, much the same way he can now use the stance in quite a few situations.

    However, for the tanks not deemed to aoe, reckless suspends as soon as something hits you, regardless of damage, so if you play a class deemed ST by SoE, you will not tank in reckless, period.

    I really don't like what that means as this translates down to non-raid play. Seems my crusader alts get to continue to pwn face in heroic content doing entire zones in reckless, but my guard and monk are deemed to do 1/2 to 1/3rd of the dps of a similarly geared aoe tank in heroic content.

    All in all though, it leaves me where I am now. I play a guard on raids, I play a paladin in heroics. I can play either class in either content, but each lends itself to the other better. If they decide paladin is a ST tank and gets the reckless penalty, I'll just swap to my SK for heroics. But all in all, I think the game is in a silly place when I have these factors pushing me off one class to another for different content. I'm not saying everyone should be able to do everything the same, but 1/2 to 1/3rd is too large of a gap. If you asked me for a solution, it would be to remove reckless, cause I don't like how it translates outside of raid content.
    Everdog, Estred and Daalilama like this.
  13. Lygerr Active Member

    you have to consider that every class is specialized in certain ways, it's not difficult anymore to roll a second tank that can do what you want if the class doesn't suit your needs rather than beating your head against a wall to try and change the class(back into a better version of the others).
  14. Daalilama Well-Known Member

    Every tank is specialized to some degree however reckless is a generic dps stance for all tanks however ever since it was implemented warriors got the short end of the stick as it only boosted potency instead of crit bonus for them which means that practically no warrior used it as the decrease in survivability far far outweighed the modest dps increase for warriors. What Atan is saying is that quite frankly the "fix" for reckless is quite a lot less of a fix than an enhanced nerf warriors will prob never get any benefit from the new version just like the old one and we may have more tanks that wont get the benefit as well.
    Estred likes this.
  15. Everdog Member

    It seems that guardians are going to be buffed up.
    ToS, Lastman Standing and Perfect Counter are much better in Beta.
    I can be satisfied with these changes.

    What is sad, Guardian's Prestige Left Abilities are not revamped yet.

    What I want Guardians to gain by taking Left Side Abilities are like below.

    1, Make Reinforcement proc +2 threat position per attack instead of +1 position per attack.
    2, Champion's Stand or whatever ability of Guardian's Left Side End line can add 1-trigger Stoneskin to ToS, LS and PC.
    3, Guardian can have +6% Phyisical/Magical DR or more by taking left side abilities.
    4, Make stoneskins stackable given by Unstoppable Wall or Simply just make Unstoppable Wall add +20%-25% DR to Defensive Minded
    5, No Idea how Champions Watch/Interception can be revamped. Maybe these abilities should be replaced by completely different abilities, maybe something to generate more significant threat.
    6, I will be happy if ToS has a chance to clear the cooldown of Lastman Standing instead of Battlecry to clear that of Defensive Minded.

    Just my thoughts. Thanks.
  16. Estred Well-Known Member

    If I read ToS/LMS/PC by it's wording you can't use them to block multiples of the same damage more than once. So if you have a Noxious hitting you for 4 ticks where each tick can kill you, this by the way is Tagrin Maldric when he came out. By the wording I would expect to block the 1st hit and the other 3 would still hit you because "Suspends all other Stoneskins that match the damage types of this effect" unless that just means some stoneskins take precedence over others I would have to test it, I just made a junk Guard while my main copies over.
  17. Atan Well-Known Member

    I don't think that's how it works, I think the suspends means when TOS is up it will not consume stoneskins grantedf by other buffs, say block, or whatever. It consumes these abilities first as other abilities are 'suspended'.

    Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong as well, and I'm posting from recollection without the benefit of the examines in front of me.
  18. Silzin Active Member

    when i was reading it and thinking it over this is the way i understood it also... that you would be immune to what every type of damage THAT Stone Skin dealt for the next 1 sec, and no other Stone Skins would be used for That Damage Type during that time.
  19. Sevantal Member

    Unfortunately this has always ended up being a nerf in defensive and/or taunt abilities with minor dps increases. The Guardian rant has been going on since after ROK. In the beginning it was the Guardian that tanked all. Zerk couldn't do what the guardian could and the monk/bruis pal/sk weren't even thought of as an option.
  20. Estred Well-Known Member

    That's why they went the route they did. The could:
    - increase Guardian DPS to be "in line" with other tanks which would make them probably too well rounded.
    - increase Guardian survival/hate tools making them even more powerful as Utility-Tanks but keep low DPS.
    - increase Guardian DPS but only on a single target thus making the Guardian worse at anything that requires hitting more than one target.

    Option 3 is the one that SOE is going with using the Focused Offensive Stance. It's an alternative to Singular Focus that grants the Guardian increased DPS only while attacknig a single target. This brings up DPS without lowering Defenses or Taunts but also prevents Guardians from outclassing the Paladin who now has very powerful healing capacity and without outclassing Monks who may do comparable DPS, but they may hit more than one target at a time.
    Guardian: Single-Target High Survival Tank
    Monk: Multi-Target DPS Tank
    Paladin: Multi-Target Healing Tank
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