Guardian Revamp?

Discussion in 'Fighters' started by Wakanash, Sep 18, 2013.

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  1. Wakanash Member

    Now im fairly sure we can all agree that Guardians have the lowest DPS of all the tank classes by a large margin as well as a lack compared to the other classes for AOE aggro. Now before this is just dismissed as a rant know I am fine with both of those. The Guardian is supposed to be the Defensive tank now it seems like most other tank classes can tank just as well in most content. Now i have heard that where Guardians excell is in Hard Mode Raids for use of the VERY short term low charge stone skins for burst damage Mitigation. If that is the case why am i seeing Pally, Shadowknight, Bruiser, and Zerker tanks taking up the main tank roll in these HM Raids? (not talking about fights that can only be tanked by a specific class)

    Personaly i just dont see the increase Defense and Mitigation that Guardians get for the shortage of DPS.

    On a seperate note we get a good number of threat gaining abilitys and taunts other than the snaps i see a good number of these unclicked on my hot bar UNLESS everything else is on cool down.

    What can we do to make Guardians a better defensive tank without overpowering while still giving us good role in groups.

    Discuss!
  2. Silzin Active Member

  3. Raahl New Member

    There is a reason Guardians are the lowest used class in game. Most Guardians have given up on the hope of any true balance between the fighter classes.
    Chimeron likes this.
  4. Chimeron New Member

    That is the main reason i left the game after holding on for years Raahl.
    Raahl likes this.
  5. guard Active Member

    true I rolled a zerker and spend most of my time playing that or my monk. I had thought about just betraying my guard but decided I would keep him just incase
  6. Wakanash Member

    So what can we do to make them better so they can hold contention with the other tanks yet still keep them as the Defensive Tank?
  7. guard Active Member

    quickest and easiest fix is to up guards dps in line with the other defencive tanks
  8. Silzin Active Member


    I think the problem the Guard Class has is bigger then just DPS. I think its an Options Problem. Estred laid out a good plan for making their defensive options capable of dealing with what Guard's should be able to deal with.

    I dont think just boosting there CA damage and/or their Auto Attack damage would "Fix" Guards offensively. the other Defensive Tanks lose a lot of dps when we pull out all of the Defensive Options, but i dont think Guards have an adequate amount of Offensive Options. If you could give them the options to get a lot more dps without boosting the Zerkers then i think this would be ideal. In this way ... just like other tanks ... they can use an Offensive Spec for mobs they dont need all of the Defense on and they have the Option of swapping to a very Defensive Spec when they NEED that.

    ATM, from what i understand, they just dont have the OPTION of going offensive in a noticeable way.
  9. Estred Well-Known Member

    Reckless + Dual Wield + Full Offense Spec (which btw is what we tank in since it offers more constant Damage Reduction than the Defense Spec) and hope for the best, maybe 800-12K (both I have parsed myself) on an AE heavy fight if we have 100% AE Auto.

    Basically to DPS on a Guardian we have to cap out on every skill possible and be as easy to kill as a scout. Even then a Zerk or Monk on the same fight in the same set up will demolish our parse. I think that our temps such as Defensive Minded should add 20% Extra Ripost Chance not Dodge. That way our Avoidance still goes up to 20% but we also deal more damage 20% of that time, thus we do more damage while we are tanking. Guardian's also need Reversal fixed and Plant fixed and Unyeilding Will needs a change, it's the strongest in terms of HP and duration but also has the longest Recast and is the only DI that KILLS you! Unless you put AA into it which you are forced to do as a Guardian. A minor way to improve thier DPS would be to make "Flurry" a Guardian Tree Endline be worth something.

    Reversal
    It's pretty much good as is but I feel the Guardian should have an AA for it in the Guardian Tree. Something along these lines.
    Tactical Revenge (at 5 ranks)
    Increases the damage of Reversal by 25%
    Decreases the delay between triggers by 50%
    This AA would replace Enhance: Unyielding Will.
    Tactical Prowess (at 5 ranks)
    When reversal triggers the Guardian gains 10% Extra Ripost Chance and 5000 Extra Ripost Damage that lasts for 5 seconds.
    This AA would replace Aggressive Entry or Guardian Phalanx.

    - If ERD works as I think it does each rank adds 1000 more damage to a successful Ripost. Testing would have to be done to see what this actually does to a Guardian while they are tanking, still the damage is locked behind the fact that the Guardian has to be hit.

    Unyielding Will
    This ability requires 10 AA to actually make worthwhile. With a base recast of 15 minutes and it kills you if you don't put AA to it. The effects are it revives you to 125% Max HP (giving you 25% more HP) for the duration but Enhance: Unyielding Will and Fight Through Death should be one AA given the lowest reuse time is still 7 minutes 30 seconds, you will barely have it come off Cooldown during a fight even once.

    Plant
    Currently is a short-range force target with 8 maximum targets. The AA needs a change.
    Enhance: Plant (at rank 5)
    Improves Duration by 2 seconds.
    Improves the Radius by 20%
    Improves the max number of targets by 5
    Final Rank: May effect Epic Targets for 50% Duration and 50% targets.

    For those who do not know the skill that would mean it would have a 10 meter radius, a max targets of 13 and a duration of 8 seconds. Against Epic Targets it would last for 4 seconds and only effect 6 targets maximum. Meaning the skill with AA is actually worthwhile for Raids again but not overpowered as a long-duration Force Target. Some Raid Bosses (Named) would still be Immune but Adds would not be Immune. Thus the Immunity is a special thing for some bosses.

    Flurry
    Currently is 3% Flurry for investing 20 AA in the tree. With how stats are now this is a bit outdated, it meant something in Sentinels Fate when it came out. I would propose simply making it 5% which isn't much but it makes it feel better to be taken. That or maybe this AA needs to be Replaced with Tactical Prowess.
    Wakanash likes this.
  10. guard Active Member

    oh guards do need a lot more than just a dps boost but it would be a good starting point. The whole point that a guards has by far the lowest dps is meant to be that we have the highest survivability against a single hard hitting named which just isn't the case. there is maybe 2 mobs in the game that are better to be tanked by a guard and as the guard is meant to be the best mt by class that needs sorting out.
  11. Silzin Active Member


    Estred, looking over these Offensive ideas and going over the Defensive ideas in the other tree, i think would go a long way for guards. I am not sure that busting the Guards damage when tanking is the needed goal. I think guards need more of a DPS bust when using ether Offensive and/or Reckless stance. If Reckless Stance Could be changed to be a class specific Stance then it would be doable, but i dont think that will happen. I am thinking they need a boost to dps from the DPS Prestige side.. you know it needs to be more DPS and may need LESS DR... just an idea.
  12. Estred Well-Known Member

    The Boost while tanking is to help compensate for their low DPS while tanking compared to all other classes who also survive as well as the Guardian does. I feel that some of these changes I proposed above replace very unused skills because then you don't have the AA to take what you want plus the new stuff. Which brings do you want Offense or Defense back into the question. The Prestiege Tree makes a huge difference in damage, the problem is it doesn't do that for Defense as well.

    Basically the Ripost bonus is a band-aid fix for low CA damage that isn't just a flat buff and thereby is more up to a player to utilize. That said though any change to the Warrior Tree would change up my opinon of how Guardians need to be modified. I think all tank classes can agree that the Warrior Tree is the weakest of all AA Tree's.

    As to the Offense Line, Grit normally only stacks once before falling off in most raids or higher heroic content so it rarely stacks up to 6% DR while the Defense Line is 4.5% Constant DR. So it does net less defense but for considerably more offense. I don't have much to say about the Offense Prestige, I have to await the ToV Tree's or get on Test to check them out myself, something I should have done quite some time ago.
    Kedrin likes this.
  13. Wakanash Member

    I agree I think maybe a straight dps increase is not the way to go but an increase to damage using reposte and damage shields increase in our defensive line.
  14. Estred Well-Known Member

    Please note that the 1000 ERD is at level 95, that damage would scale by level because 1000 ERD at level 30 BG's would kill almost anyone attacking the Guardian.

    50% Trigger Delay means the skill resets it's ability to proc every 15 seconds instead of 30 seconds. I would further insist for both Guardians and Berserkers (Warrior Tree) that Reversal be lowered to reset every 20 seconds, making Guardians reset every 10 seconds with AA. I may say go as low as 10 seconds for both classes and maybe then the Guardian's would have to have something else because a 5 second recast on Reversal may be too much.

    IF Reversal was lowered to 10 seconds to refresh then I would suggest Tactical Revenge to only 30% Bonus Damage and Threat on Reversal instead. That places Reversal at 11.7-16.9 thousand base damage at rank 10. Most Warriors currently if they run Stamina Line only run four points in Reversal and that would put the damage at 4382-7499 damage. I don't mind Reversal being tied to a shield however, I think that it should only proc less without a shield. Currently it procs on a block/parry/ripost from the Guardian or a block/parry/reflect/ripost from the enemy. Without a shield this means Reversal only procs on a Parry/Ripost from the Guardian and I would say only on a Parry/Ripost from the enemy (3 procs are gone) so it's more a defense proc for aggro than a offense proc for damage.

    Tactical Revenge will also apply to Reversal of Fortune which I think would be very nice as a skill if in addition to Hate the final rank added a 2% Heal when Reversal is Triggered. If percentage heals seem too much than I would rather a scaling Ward at level 95 it would have to be a 2250 point ward.
    Daalilama likes this.
  15. Silzin Active Member

    the numbers and ability changes you have talked about sound reasonable to me... at least for a Guard. also if most all of the things that you have suggested here offensively and the other thread Defensively i think guards would be much more desirable in raid and group again.
  16. Karnoz Active Member

    I disagree. The problem with guardians doesn't have anything directly to do with the class; it has to do with the other fighter classes. Namely, they all deal either too much or way too much damage and most of them sport too great survivability, meaning they're able to tank everything, just like guardians.

    What is really needed is a general tank survivability nerf, a brawler-specific survivability nerf on top of that, a class-specific revamp of Reckless (reduced power for brawlers, drastically reduced effectiveness for crusaders, and much more oomph for warriors), more/better guardian utility, and more defensive guardian DPS, especially in the form of single-target burst damage (as long as monks and paladins have comparative survivability and superior AE DPS, I don't see any reason why guardian single-target DPS shouldn't be the best among the three ostensibly defensive tanks).

    Some of the above is happening in the closed beta, or so I'm hearing, so good times may be just around the bend.
  17. Silzin Active Member

    So if I am getting your idea strata.. plz correct me if I am wrong?
    1st. you want all dps down where the Healers are know.
    2nd. You want brawlers to only be able to tank trash mobs… and maybe off tank for the ALL Middy Guardian?
    3rd. you want Zerkers to be able to DPS with the other 1t scout/mage dps classes when also tanking/OT?
    4th. You want the Guard to be the ONLY Viable tank class when it comes to tanking Named Raid Mobs… o wait if there is a General Tank Nurf, then no tank will be able to tank the hard HM Mobs… so you want the HM Content that is out to be unkillable?

    This is what I am understanding you to say.

    I don’t think your idea is a good approach for aver all Game Health. 1 if you go and nurf all tanks down to the dps scale of Guards and then nurf survivability of all non Guards… all non Guards will ether just stop playing EQ2 all together on the Guard would be like 75% of all tanks in group/raid… BAD IDEA… next bringing brawlers and SK’s DPS down to the point that Guards are would kill their ability to hold agro since for then … and Zerkers … DPS = Hate.

    Next Monks have the same amount of AoE dps as a guard… A lot of Monks agree that Dragonfire Prestige Ability needs a lot of work/changing. Changing Dragonfire would hurt the monk AoE dps and if the changes in the monk thread that I started were implemented then monks would move to be more ST again and Bruisers would be the more AoE Brawler…. (Side Conversation.. Sorry) … I do think that Guards need to have a lot more dps, but they need to sacrifice that dps when they are going into Turtle Spec… I know Monks do… this comes down to the Guard having more Options to take more dps AA choices… and that is what Estred was laying out… more choices for Guards.
  18. Estred Well-Known Member

    Silzin I am a Guardian and I agree with you that his idea sounds more like a "ruin all tanks but Guardian" and I think it's the phrasing. Guards need buffs while tanking to do their job, other tanks probably need slight nerfs so they much choose what the specialize in like a Guardian does.

    Simply put, using the Guardian as a reference point since they do have some of the best tank-utility and survivability.

    You want to survive as well as a Guardian, you do damage like a Guardian.
    You want to do more damage than a Gaurdian then you don't take hits as well.
    You want to help other tanks as much as a Guardian than you probably won't survive or DPS as well.

    Currently the problem with Brawlers in general is they are a perfect hybrid of high-DPS and Survivability. That shoves out slots for all other tanks, SK's barely maintain a hold on the OT position and Paladins seem only by guild-leader-preference. Zerks and Guardians are nigh extinct as a class with the Guardian officially on the Endagered List and Zerks are Threatened Species.

    Guards need to be brought up while tanking, but having low DPS while not tanking, it makes sense to their class. They perform the best while Guarding something. Monks, should do more DPS while not tanking because they have to focus on their survival while tanking, since they can't take hits very well. Frankly that could be practically remedied by lowering the Temporary Mitigations boosts they have. When a monk takes a hit, it should be very noticeable for a healer. That's the risk you take for the higher-dps than a Guardian has, lower-survival. I can't really comment much on the OT game because no guilds seem to run Guards as OTs so I have little experience in a consistent OT position, I usually have MT'd.
    Daalilama and Raahl like this.
  19. Teah New Member

    I have been watching this issue for a long time now. My guardian is slow attacking and when she does doesn't do much damage at all. She is noticeably sturdier then my assassin, but not my monk or berserker (neither of which have a shield or are specked for defense). I would like to see more group buffs tilted toward defense or hate reduction for all "non-fighter" classes. I would also like to see a noticeable difference in the manner of a base defensive boost for this class. They are suppose to be the best at taking damage, that's why they are reduced in other areas. At least that's what I believe was behind the lack of dps in this particular class.

    I don't want my guardian to dps, I want her to tank.
  20. Silzin Active Member

    i try to look at it in there are 2 tanking Jobs. MT... tanking 1 hard hitting Mob... and OT tanking several Quick hitting mobs. each tank needs to be able to tank both most of the time, but designed to specialize in 1. so the monk, Guard and Pally all need to be able to tank the same mobs, and Zerkers, SK's and Buisers all need to be able to OT the same mobs. this would really only apply to the HM named, since any tank should be able to tank any EM Group or raid.

    this leads me to think...
    Can Guards tank all of the HM out there... and Y/Y not...
    can Monks tank all of the HM out there... and Y/Y not...
    Can Pally's Tank all of the HM out there ...and Y/Y not...

    I MT most of the HM named that my guild pulls over the Guard in our guild, i am not sure sure it is all about the class... but i do think that guards need a lot of work, and i think the things you and others in these 2 threads goes a long way to addressing them. i have also said that monks need Dragonfire looked at and maybe 1 or 2 other things like that... but i dont think Monks are more Defensive then they "Should Be" we can tank the HM named that we need to. I am not sure about Pally's i think they are desint, but could use some love also, but not like Guards do.

    I do not care about the OT tanks atm. If my approach to tank design is way off then all of my thoughts can and probably should be ignored.
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