Here's my take on the status of our prestige AA's on the test server. Guardian's Interception The Guardian's Interception is a pretty decent bit of group utility. It is, however, situational, since it only really gets practical use vs unblockable AE's. Top raid guilds already now ensure that the two MT healers never get hit by blockable AE's (clerics and coercers both get a single-target blocker, and it's possible to block people not in your group), and as for the rest of the group, not a lot of AE's get past dirge and druid/swashbuckler AE blockers plus the 90 sec reuse cleric group death preventer (Equilibrium). That's fine, though; vs unblockable AE's, when available, it does contribute significantly to group survivability. As I see things, there are four problems with the ability right now: 1) the increment gain rate is highly inconsistent, 2) the base ability is effectively useless by itself, 3) Will of the Champion doesn't actually add anything new to the base ability; it simply renders it useable; and 4) the personal utility part of the ability, while good in principle, needs tweaking. 1) During a couple of named fights, especially those involving lots of adds with individual AE auto-attacks and/or AE's, the increment gain rate is every bit as high as I could wish for. On the other hand, there are other named fights where I can't for the life of me generate 50 increments during the course of the entire fight; granted, those aren't the longest fights, but even so, it shouldn't take more than three minutes to max out your increments when you are clicking your single-target taunt every time it is up. Hence, I'd like to see both our single-target taunt as well as our group taunt generate one increment whenever either is used. 2) & 3) I believe that the base ability (i.e., Guardian's Interception with 3 points invested without any of the three auxiliary abilities) should be effectively useful in its own right. However, that isn't currently the case for one reason: namely, the unmodifiable 1.5 sec cast time renders it exceedingly difficult to cast the ability before an AE hits--it is actually as slow as or slower than most raid boss AE's. My proposed solution is to render Guardian's Interception modifiable with regards to cast time (i.e., allow the Cast Speed stat to reduce the cast time of the ability), so the base ability becomes useable without any points in Will of the Champion, and change Will of the Champion in such a fashion that it becomes a reasonably attractive investment and not just a necessary evil. In that regard, I would suggest leaving the cast time reduction as it is, removing the duration increase, and adding a couple of group control effect immunities per point invested. Give this setup, GI would be decently useful if you were to go for a dual-tree spec, even though you wouldn't be able to use it very often. On the other hand, should you choose to specialize in the left tree, you would get much stronger group utility while retaining the option of either picking two of the three 5th tier abilities along with the middle tree endline, or picking all three 5th tier abilities and forgoing the middle tree endline. Options are good. Right now, conversely, you only have one option, really, if you want to maximize survivability and end up with an effectively useable Guardian's Interception: 2 points in Guardian's Will (bringing the cast time down to a manageable 0.5 sec) and 3 points in the other two 5th tier abilities (the Damage Reduction simply can't be ignored, and the increment gain rate is way too low to not pick Glare), leaving no points for the middle tree endline. 4) The personal utility of the left tree all rests in Champion's Shout. Recently, the incoming healing bonus was turned into 4.5% Damage Reduction, making it by far the best of the new prestige abilities in the left tree. This is definitely a good change. I would, however, like to see the bonus increased slightly to 2.5% per rank, resulting in a max bonus of 7.5%, so it slightly exceeds the 6% you're able to get from Grit in the right (offensive) tree. As for the threat bonus, I don't really see the point. For one thing, the bonus is too low to make a significant impact, certainly much less than the extra DPS, and thus threat, gained from going down the right tree. For another, the toggle-off-early mechanic directly contradicts the threat aspect of the ability, which encourages you to leave the buff running as long as possible. In other words, the threat bonus should be significant enough to warrant losing up to an extra 25 increments. Finally, does the threat component implementation even work? There isn't anything in my log that would suggest it. Quite frankly, if the Damage Reduction component were raised to 7.5%, I wouldn't care if the (defunct?) threat component were removed entirely. If the Damage Reduction component were to stay at 4.5%, I'd like to see an additional bit of utility or survivability attached instead of the threat component: either a small amount of max HP% per increment for the duration of GI, or instead a 2% chance per increment of increasing by 1 our position on the threat list of whatever mob we strike for the duration of GI--at 50 increments becoming a miniature Reinforcement. Defensive Sphere In its current state, this one isn't going to be picked by anyone, I'm sorry to say. Guardian Sphere currently isn't even remotely reliable enough to be used as a counter move vs a hard-hitting AE or death touch, so it is instead being applied as a means of reducing overall incoming damage, preventing incidental spikes. In other words, it serves the same purpose as our other general survivability buffs, Defensive Minded and Hunker Down. Now, given the nature of Guardian Sphere, you clearly don't want it overlapping with Defensive Minded. Defensive Minded drastically reduces the number of successful enemy hits, and thus, renders Guardian Sphere stoneskin procs almost non-existent. Instead, Guardian Sphere is much better used when Defensive Minded drops, effectively granting 25% stoneskin-based avoidance for the duration. Now, keeping that in mind, it should be clear that a 15 sec reuse reduction isn't going to accomplish anything; it would merely allow us to cast Guardian Sphere while Defensive Minded was still running, which we aren't interested in doing in the first place. Thus, if you want to improve Guardian Sphere in a meaningful way, it should be by extending the duration (by 10 sec, say), by increasing the proc rate (from 25% to 33%, for instance), or by adding some other benefit to Guardian Sphere, such as max HP% or Damage Reduction. Of course, there are many other great survivability options available if you don't want to stick with Guardian Sphere.
If they are really wishing to keep the threat component to GI make it based of the groups dps not our own. roughly 5% transfer for the whole group would possibly show something in the logs but frankly, I can't find anything in your suggestions that I don't agree with. The goal of AA has always been customizing your avatar to be unique to that end each tree should focus on its prime; left for defense right for offense. I very much agree with the idea of the constant DR being upped by maybe to nine percent (half that of stacked Grit). Grit generates DR for each stack of it (if I have read my own logs properly) netting actually 18% DR at 3 increments of Grit. Granted in a raid we will have 1 increment thus 6% almost constantly so having shout as the defense version yield a bit more than Grit would be desirable. I would be willing to lose the DR from Grit in favor of say at 3 ranks increase the amount of damage we have to take to remove Grit allowing us to keep more stacks of it, strengthening the "right is defense left is offense" idea of the AA trees. Perhaps letting the on-hit effects crit. Currently I tried going Grit-spec and found myself missing even the mixed 25% DR at half-stacks on CI during HM fights.
The Damage Reduction component doesn't stack with multiple increments of Grit. Multiple increments merely allows you to keep Grit up through more blows without it dropping.
Ah thanks for the clarification. Looking back through my logs I actually had Hunker Down running at the same time i was testing Grit whoops on my part. Though still the %DR permanent would reasonably be a smidgen less than the temp-DR from Grit considering one is up 100% of the time its just flat damage the Guardian will not take kinda like another layer of mitigation.
Maintaining Grit isn't that hard. Vs the hardest raid bosses, only about one in four hits gets through my avoidance and stone skins. With another fighter's avoidance buff on me, things look even better.
True avoidance does help a lot for maintaining Grit. My point was that Temp-DR should always be higher than permanent DR with the same AA allotment as one is up 100% of the time. Even if you block 70% of attacks that usually means 30% break your DR from Grit for 1-3 seconds depending when you casted/incremented it last. Those 1-3 second windows can inadvertently mean death if the mobs actually hit worth a damn. 5% from Champions Shout would work and 6% from Grit or maybe 7% from Grit puts the two in line. Though one could argue as the offensive tree it should have less DR making 5% for each a valid balance. I miss the CC-break/immunity that was on beta though I was really looking forward to using that add-on skill to CI since really you only need 2 points to make its casting time worth it.
Hey Karnoz just a question what do you think about the removal from beta the CC break/immunity Guardians were supposed to get with Champions Interception? That certainly would be useful for personal Utility and allow us to continue our group utility where other tanks could not. Certainly seems like a good idea on paper to stand the Guard aside in a small way from the others.
So.. Changes are on test, I played around for a bit and the defensive line is still pretty much worthless except on a select few encounters, the Offenisve (Right) side simply offers benefits that are more beneficial more often and actually allows to have higher Damage reduction a lot of the time. IMO - 1. Damage reduction needs to be higher, 2-3% per rank. 2. The hate gain needs a tweak, the mechanic simply doesn't work with the rest of Interception. We're encouraged to turn this ability off, the hate gain simply isn't high enough to leave it running when you want to use interception and it isn't enough of an offset against the offensive line when you don't need interception. 3. We need to take at least 2 points in will just to make the ability useful, having it increase duration doesn't do anything useful because as (2) we're encouraged to turn the ability off early. 4. Increment gain is still bloody slow on a lot of mobs, the main problem with it is how situational increment gain is. I don't think this method of increment gain can ever be balanced to make the ability useful on the majority of fights. Even using Provoke every time it's up I've had fights where it takes me 3 mins to gain 50 increments, in the same zone I've seen fights where I can gain 50 increments every 40 seconds. Another Suggestion for Shout: Have Champions Shout also give us a new ability simply called "Champions Shout". Allow it to use a similar charging mechanic as bard RO/VC, when we use Interception our damage done directly charges Champions Shout. "Champions Shout" can then be used and is simply a non critting taunt for whatever value you have charged it for, useable for 2 minutes from the last Interception use. 2.4% per increment, at 50 Increments that's 120% so at 250k DPS we're gaining 300k hate per second. Instead of the current situation of this hate being added over 12 seconds so giving us a pretty minor boost in hate gain over whatever the reuse of interception is for that fight. We have a taunt that will hit for the generated value of hate which can be used anytime in the next minute. On paper we've not gain anything at all, it still generates the same hate over the same period of time. What we've gained is the ability to use this hate when we decide we need it so it adds more useability to the ability. Both the duration increase and leaving the ability running is actually useful now across a broader range of encounters.
That is a massive threat boost if you are able to charge it that high. A 300K taunt is very strong not quite a snap but spam it and its a lot not even Experienced Insight generates that much threat (13-25K theat per hit). I agree with you that Shout should be a trade-off mechanic forcing the guardian to weigh Group utility versus personal utility. 2.4% of the Guardians dps is a meh ability. I would rather it be changed to one of these twho tings. 1: The guardian Siphons 2.5% of the groups dps as threat (including his own). 2: Change it to while its active we have a .5% per increment to reflect a portion of the damage inflicted. Example of version 2 (which encourages leaving it up and therefore losing all stacks of Champions Insight) At 50 stacks (max utility) The Guardian absorbs 10% of incoming damage while Champions Interception is active. 200% of the reduced damage is returned to the source. The 3 ranks of Champions shout as follows. 1 Rank: 3.3% of damage absorbed and 100% return rate. The Guardian gains 1.5% damage reduction.. 2 Ranks: 6.6% of damage absorbed at a 150% return rate. The Guardian gains 3%% damage reduction. 3 Ranks: 10% of damage is absorbed at 200% return rate. The Guardian gains 4.5% damage reduction. The 4.5% DR is still constant as it is currently. But the mechanic on Shout now encourages the Guardian to leave it running and therefore lose Champions Sight which charges somewhat slowly. This makes the spell a "trade off" depending on what the Guardian wishes in the given scenario. If we want damage we still go for Defenders Charge as the retributive damage is still low The focus effect for Guardian Sphere is still worthless at 150sec base cool-down with max reuse that's still 1 minute 15 seconds reuse. For the Prestige end-line we are giving up a crucial part of Defenders Charge or Champion's Interception. I would rather the final AA for this upgrade the trigger chance by a flat amount giving it 30% self and 50% for the group thus increasing its utility but not making it up more. Beyond these two minor tweaks I am quite pleased with the Guardians right now in relations to the other tanks. We don't have the damage we leave that up to Berserkers. Our class focus is defense and group utility.
No, a 300k none critting taunt isn't large, our normal ST taunt crits for over 100k, how you've explained it isn't how I meant for it to work though. But yes the intention was to make it a snap. Currently if we use Interception, while Interception is up you'll gain 2.4% of damage dealt as hate with 3 points in shout. This equates to a total of 120% at 50 increments for the duration of 12 seconds. So at 250k DPS you'll be gaining 300k hate per second while the ability is up. What I suggested was that instead of just applying that hate at the time, charge an ability which can then be used when we like. So if you left Interception up for 4 seconds while doing 250k DPS (300k hps) the taunt would be 1.2million hate, which can't crit. Lots of classes now have hits in the millions, and burst DPS in the tens of millions. The amount is: DPS x ((Enc x 2.4)/100) = Hate per second. As I said, we're not actually gaining any hate here, this is the amount of hate the current ability gives us. it's just being put into one ability to be used at a time of our choosing. Interception then turns into: 1. Use interception to protect the group and gain a small taunt and some increments back. or 2. Use interception to fully charge the snap, loose all increments and don't give much protection to the group unless timed well. or 3. Somewhere in between. Or.. choose the DPS line which gives a very good increase in DPS and some defense. At the end of the day I don't care what the left side does, I'd just like a reason to choose it over the right side. Currently there is no fight I've done that "NEEDS" it or even a fight where it is highly beneficial to have it. It can just make life a little easier sometimes.
Thanks for the refresher you are correct I missed the 2.4% per increment part of the buff, that makes it less useless. I guess this comes down to personal preference. I would rather have additional absorption coupled with reflection rather than flat threat increase. My reasoning behind that opposed to the other one is just that I have as a Guard plenty of hate tools and my hotbars are quite full as is now if they made that new taunt suggestion of yours the same cast as Provoke perhaps that would work I certainly wouldn't complain. I love the idea of group DR but always felt that a fraction of it should be given to the guardian and the reflect mechanic allows us to defensivly take the power of our opponent and throw it back; an aspect I greatly enjoy of Perfect Counter Attack. Which brings back the point of an ability being fun to use
There is a separate "new person board" to ask those questions on. This thread is specifically to address the CoE prestige AA.
Well either way, I feel that Champions Interception is a worthwhile ability with the Passive DR. I just want a more noticeable reason to leave it running for the full duration(Visible Damage or a Charging Taunt we can then rotate fulfill this easily). Since as is I still only toggle the ability on for the AE then immediately cancel it to gain my increments back. 2.4% Hate per stack is nice but it is not noticeable/useful if I already have and am holding Hate just fine. Oh another idea though if they really want the 2.4% per stack to stay. What if that amount doubled if we were not the target of our targets aggression; so 300% Hate if we are not the target allowing us to use CI as a hate-regain skill but not a flat snap-taunt.
Ideally there does need to be some form of hate on the left (Defensive Side), however it shouldn't be in place of defensive utility and it should either enhance or at least work well with the main ability. Until recently with the addition of DR the former wasn't true and the latter still isn't. This hate portion imois at the very least ill thought out and badly implemented. The hate portion of the ability would be fine and actually pretty good if we could generate enough increments to make use of it often on most fights. This isn't the case though, increment gain is so painfully slow on a lot of encounters. and the ability will actually cost us 50% of the increments we've slowly built up if we use it to it's full extent because we're encouraged to toggle the main ability off early. The fights where the group aren't taking much damage, trash fights, easy fights are the exact fights where we'll be wanting to take advantage of the hate portion of this ability so they can be burnt through faster, this is because it doesn't do much to help against the harder scripted fights where snaps are king. Unfortunately these are the same fights where we'll be relying on our taunt to supply the majority of our increment gain which is ~12 per minute. 4 minutes to build up 50 increments using only the taunt. A very simple fix for it, would be to just apply the hate buff for a set duration once used and keep it up even if the main ability interception is toggled off so it doesn't directly conflict with the primary ability, and to actually fix increment gain on these fights.
I definitely agree with parts of your statement. Many times I don't use CI because the fights don't hit hard enough AE for me to have to use it... I mean maybe on Drinal I will but not even Oligar/Baeolon HM I have to use it. The 1st half of the defense line is greate (Stoneskins on Defensive Minded) But the 2nd half feels so lackluster, it is better now but it still feels like a half-thought out skill. the 4.5% DR is getting there, now we have some real personal utility to this spell. Still it lacks a reason for the Guardian to leave the skill running past 1-2 seconds to soak an AE. A damage reflect (Yes i know Crusaders will get mad at that idea) would supplement one reason (offense for sacrificing higher amounts of Group DR by losing Champions Sight). Perhaps instead of that the Guardian gains retributive damage (like a stronger version of Thorns) while active since we get hit so much. Just two options that help keep the feeling from the offense tree of "I build for X but I get a smidge of Y" which is a feeling I greatly like.
My guild finally decided to go back and clear PoW again. Until we faced the Commanders, the left-hand tree was effectively a waste of points; I should have run with the offensive tree instead. Besides, the increment gain rate sucked in all but one named fight. Vs the Commanders, however, Champion's Interception proved quite useful indeed, allowing me to tank Corpsemaul as the only fighter in the group, with a dirge holding the named while I dealt with the death touch. This was possible back at 92nd level as well, but Champion's Interception made it an absolute breeze to keep the dirge up without death saves and the like, which was definitely not the case in the past. The increment gain rate was just as it should be in this particular fight. Vs Teku, I would assume the damage reduction from the left-hand tree did its part (we killed the named on the first pull), but Champion's Interception once again didn't do jack to affect the outcome. As it stands, it clearly is a highly situational tool.
That's roughly how I have been feeling it. The group DR is an amazing mechanic and very fun to use. There aren't fights yet that require it. If you haven't Karnoz take a look over at the Warrior AA discussion thread. Me and 3 other players are hasing around ideas to revamp the tree to make it more friendly to both Guradians and Berserkers so they can have a DPS and a Defense spec if they want.
The left vs right debate is a tough one. Left side provides survivability that is rarely needed, Right side too many of the benefits require not being the target of the mob. They both leave alot to be desired, and often I feel I'm just going to my AA mirror and picking the line that doesn't suck less for the night.
Yep kinda what it feels to me. The abilities are great but neither is well implemented. I personally would want (unbalanced) the Stoneskins on Defensive Minded and Defenders Charge lol. Really though I just respecced to Defenders and unless we are fighting something like Commanders or Sevalak again. I probably won't use Champions Interception unless it gets some form of damage-feedback or something to offset pushing so far into defense.
