Goodbye raid tankablilty, Hello World of Warcraft! /finger soe

I made my zerker with one purpose in mind, to raid tank for my guild. Since the new revamps I would be doing my guild a injustice if I raid tanked for them instead of the guardian in my guild with the exact same gear as me. Why? Cause even with me going stamina/hp mod's with every class/race trait and him going with agi on all of the traits he still has about 400 more hps than me! What's worse? Now he's also got a good 9% MORE avoidance (that means a ton more agi btw) than me. To top it off he's also got more mitigation than I do!!!!!!

Here's something else I noticed, you know the "hp regen" we get with our 2 spells? With both at adept 3 I'm regening incombat for 49hps a tick.....now look up the spells and you'll be like "hey wait a tic, thats supposed to give you 97pts of regen a tic!!!" Well here's some more great news, they don't. I've not been able to narrow which one is not working properly but with both up I only show myself healing myself for 49hps a tick.

This is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], with this update we was supposed to loose some of our DPS (which we did) and gain a more balanced and EQUAL footing tanking wise compared to guardians. Since the update all I've seen is how second class we are now in everything, monks/bruisers deal out more DPS than we do (they are tanks as well) and pally's tank about as well as we do with guardians haveing a very clear advantage in EVERY situation. And no, you can not say that against cold based mobs we tank better, cause we may resist better but taking damage from those huge combat abilites and straight melle hits puts us in the back of the line between guardian/berserker debates. I used to have a leg to stand on when it came to decideing which should tank raid mobs but now it's no contest, even I have to admit that guardians are better tanks than berserkers.

Having said all that this is what's going to happen on my server and in my guild if things don't get staightened out. I'm going to loose interest in this game, then my guild will loose interest and all of us with our multiple accounts (SOE if you think this is hollow warning check out the petitions on my server...) will move on to a different MMO and try and forget the god awful experience that was Sony's EQ2.

Berserkers the orginal way they was released was fun, you could compete at several different positions in the raid line up. You could be a raid MT, you could be the off tank, you could be the straight up DPS whatever the situation called for. Now, you can be......well you can be another body to fill the ranks....

Hey good luck with your easy mode no class diversity cookie cutter pos game called WoW. That game is the biggest mmo joke i ever wasted over a year on. I do not know whats worse, the game, or me paying them to waste my time. If you think SoE wrecked the zerker, sure go play WoW , the class devs on WoW dont even play the classes they nerf or "fix" , thats a fact. Enjoy 0 diversity and fotm boosts.

Well, as long as you're not over reacting
:smileyhappy:

well everything i said in the post is true, harsh, but definitely true. They are completely clueless to class development. I just find it funny though when people say that someone ruined a class on game and that they are going to cancel and move to WoW, a game that is worse than any mmo for class dev.

Yeah thats why they have over 4 million subscriptions.
I just find it funny when people think they know how well a game performs with out even had tried it. This is obviously a personal opion, a very distasteful one at that.
Message Edited by -Aonein- on 09-19-2005 11:32 AM

of course, i played through the betas, i worked with the dev team, i even played during release and just stopped last month, ya... what do i know. go play wow then.

Of course if they have 4 million subscribers it has to be awesome.... thats bs. Half of these subscribers are asian, seeing blizzard is huge in korea and the other asian countries. Numbers mean squat. If you like the game thats great, opinions differ. Whether you like it or not doesnt mean they have a clue about class development which is my point. So if you wish to debunk me, learn how to argue properly ( which involves you actually reading what im saying). Fact is, class balancing sucks... case and point. Say SoE doesnt know what they are doing and tuck tail and run to blizzard. Have fun with that.
Message Edited by Ellowan on 09-18-2005 05:43 PM

his points however valid they are, going to WoW will not change disappointment in classes. They are fun at first but extremely limited so is content. The nerfstick swings at an alarming rate, some it done under the table and not even posted about. Paladins are not even played by anyone at blizzard yet they nerf / hotfix to their hearts content. They rushed a release on WoW to compete with EQ2s release, in fact 2 of classes in the current beta had just been put in game and had no development at all. You can attack me all you like even though i speak negatively im still actaully objective and speaking the truth.
Message Edited by Ellowan on 09-18-2005 05:51 PM

Aonein, of course in the eyes of those that play the guardian class this was a "much needed change and well thought out by Sony"......hell guardians no longer have anyone to compete against except other guardians! Where's the diveristy in that? The berserker's out there that also support this change only support it because they allowed themselves to be sold short, and was fooled into believing the lie's that guardians spread about berserkers not being able to tank as well.
People that support the changes to the berserker class are without a doubt the very same people that scream on the boards that guardians are the best raid tanks before the updates as well, trying to hide the FACT that under the old system a berserker could tank raid lvl mobs as well as if not better in certain situations than guardians. Under the old way we could not take sustained dmg as long as a guardian could maybe, but what we could do is take it just a fraction less effectivly as guardians while holding aggro a TON better. In a guild that knew the truth and was willing to take advantage of it this meant that berserkers could raid tank and the raid as a whole could dump out a ton more DPS to drop the mobs alot faster. Our guild weighed the differences between me tanking raid mobs (berserker) against a fellow guildie same lvl/same gear guardian tanking raid mobs and decided that in our guild setup with the members we had that I was best for this role
Under the new system we are NO LONGER AFFORDED THAT CHOICE. Guardians have more hps, get better mitigation and have better avoidance than we do. I proved it between the guardian and myself in my guild, as I previously posted. So now that SONY has clearly elvated the guardian class as THE choice for raid lvl content.....where's the diveristy in that? Is it in the names of the guardians? lol, They have essentially reverted back to EQ1 in many ways, they have destroyed a class that was very fun to play. Sure that fun was partly in proving that the guardians was NOT the ultimate tank, but that just bolstered each respective player to learn it's class more in detail to maximize the strength's of the class. This meant more attention and less boredom because you knew that there was ANOTHER class nibbing right over your shoulder for the chance to prove that they could also raid tank.

So don't come to the berserker board and attempt to justify the reason's Sony gimped....no destroyed the Berserker class, it holds no weight here. My post was based off of frustration, frustration in the fact that Sony gaureenteed one thing and then turned around 9 months after and redid a class I enjoyed playing. I have 3 alts on my berserker class, not a one is lvl 24, not a one has seen a quarter of the play time that my berserker did. I came here because I wanted to make one last plea to Sony to correct the grevious error of making it so that guardians are the prime choice in all situations to be raid tank. Check my posts out before the change, I've always tried to help other berserkers realize their true potential and I even did a post one time where I laid out exactly what Sony had written down about the berserker class in a effort to educate those that did not understand just how well we could tank. I've spent many many hours learning the abilities of the berserker class, in order to be the best raid tank for my guild. That I have tanked epicx4 mobs for my guild was a huge source of pride I had in the way I developed my berserker. To have Sony come through and destroy my class in one swipe, leaving us without any of our formal potential irks me. Even if World of Warcraft was a MUD, after this kind of base undermining from Sony to our class I would choose it over continuing to play a class that will never be anything more than a single group tank (when there's no guardians around).

I used World of Warcraft as a attention getter for Sony, because they need to KNOW that the people that are paying them to play their game KNOWS that World of Warcraft has a much higher client base. They need to know that WoW is not something that is a fad like linage2 was, but a game that was very well thought out and put together, as evident in their numbers each quarter. I wanted SOE to understand that if they do things like this they should expect repercutions, and not just the kind where you re-roll your char. If they make these changes permanent, with no tweaking to bring classes like the berserker class back into where it's a valid choice for the core design of the class then people will stop paying SOE and take their money somewhere else. What SOE should be doing is taking their orginal idea, and working their collective ***** off to bring this game under that. Why can't you have 2 Heavy Tanks that tank almost exactly the same, with the biggest difference simply being the kind of buffs they bring to the group? That's called diveristy, making it so that you do not have to follow the exact same path as everyone else in order to achieve something. You should NOT be forced to have to lvl up a fighter then go warrior then guardian in order for you to tank epic encounters. You SHOULD have more than ONE choice on what path you go, as you used to be able to do. You could go Defensive tank, where you buff your 'group' defensivly or you could go 'offensive' tank, where you buff your group offensivly. Berserkers WAS a offensive Tank....that is what we used to be.....used to be.

From what you have posted here Memmoch is called Guardian envy. Honestly if you want to tank like a Guardian make one, nothing is stopping you from making a Guardian to tank like a Guardian.
Tankability ===> Guardian, Paladin, ShadowKnight, Berserker, Monk, Bruiser <=== Damage Potential
Im not going to get into a argument with you because you clearly only see it one way, your way, but i will say this. We are more of a offensive tank now then we were before the changes, if you cant see it, then you need more time to relearn how to play a offensive style.
Message Edited by -Aonein- on 09-19-2005 05:57 PM

Im not happy with all the changes they made, we lost in HPs and speed.... but then again it was a change as a whole.


But overall, it was a good change for Berserkers. I actually feel more like a Zerker now, we are kings in AOE melee damage and
are far more offensive oriented now than before, just like a Zerker should be.



You know what? Pre-patch, people complained about Guardians being the only choice for MT. It wasnt true, Zerkers did their MT job
perfectly.


Now people again complain that Guardians are the only MT choice, again Zerkers are doing their MT job perfectly.


Are they equal Main Tanks? No, but they are different classes. You can still MT, you will probably waste more healers mana, but your mobs will surely go down faster.


Zerkers are not broken, we never were btw.

That sounds nice on paper but parse some pls. Bruisers doing most dps and taking the least amount of dmg currently. Guardinas arnt taking dmg any better than a zerker unless your fighting blue mobs then we might be from defense buffs. However yellow+ a ranger even tanks as well.

Sums it up well.
Though faster dead mobs can often help conserve healer mana that would have lost in a longer fight.
Tell them to think of it as quick burst healing rather than steady drawn out healing.

Seems the OP wanted to take the damage as well as a Guardian. Well we don't, that what the Guardian specialises in. But I bet you can outdamage him.
Guardians tough it out taking the pounding. We give the pounding right back.

Personally I'm not a sit and take it kind a guy, more an Axe in face person, which is why I chose Bezerker in the first place.

Well, im still new to eq2, the purpose of my post however was that you will not find better pastures in WoW.

However I can definitely understand your irritation. The other reason I left WoW was to play eq2 for a specific reason. Its kind of funny, kind of sad really, but i reactivated my acoount about 4 days before DoF was released. Why did i come to EQ2? To make a monk... I was thinking i was going to play a character that was a martial artist, something along the lines of the original monk of EQ1. Then i saw the patch notes... So ya i can feel your pain. As someone that has always played Monks, I cant understand the reasoning behind SoE's current ideas for classes. Making every single Fighter line class more of a tank friendly class with less dps was their idea. I remember them saying that, however they nerf the hell out of some of these classes avoidance and mitigation. Oh well. I htink they will change some things. After all if most people want to do melee damage, as a non tank, they will roll an assassin and be done with it. Afterall, what is the point of a berserker being a MT over a Guard/Pal/SK ?

The idea in most lore for fantasy rpgs is that berserkers are reckless with crap AC/Mitigation. They do huge dmg, have huge HP pools, yet they take hits and do little to absorb. Should a class like this be able to tank? If by tank you mean steal aggro and burn the mana of everything that can keep him/her healed sure. Due to the fact that there are so many other melee classes, pallies, sk's, monks, bruisers, SoE really has their hands full making roles for these classes. Afterall a Monk certainly should be able to tank better than a zerk, should do close to the amount of dmg, but definitely tank better because it should dodge / mitigate more. However SoE does not want monks to be like eq1... [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?!? I personally see no reason to pick these other classes now unless they can tank or heal/tank. May as well be an assassin, it sucks when you are pigeonholed. I still think though they will bring balance to the classes, the xpac has been live for like a week, thats it. They are still collecting feedback. Even if they rushed out and did something, it would be hastey. Every class fix affects other classes. You overpower 1 to **** 3-4 others, so they have to consider every other fighter to do so. Not to mention whether or not it will bring about farming exploitation. Anyhow i have a law class to prep for, good luck to you, hopefully u have an alt or patience.

Well I'm not really ranting here. I love my new zerker and I am really enjoying the changes. My only concern is the order yall have for tanking. I think the current system of avoidance vs mitigation is still a bit screwy because my brother's assassin waaaay out tanks my zerker vs yellow con mobs. He is running a 66% avoidance and I watched him take 2 groups in hideout with no issues and he barely got hit heh. This was on difficult settings for him (he is lvl 35). If I run regular hideout and I get 2 groups on me I'm very lucky to survive it. Also, he is in defensive stance and doing ungodly damage....jealousy! heh. (if i run defensive stance + shield I miss all to often and my damage drop is substantial)

I know they did patch the scaling avoidance thing but grrrr he is still way out tanking me heh.

Yes there is a problem with Bruisers mainly atm, they even Tank better then a Monk which is suppose to be the other way around.
They will no doubt adjust it.

Ok maybe I missed some stuff, but when I check the two Palas in my guild (both lvl 50 and both similar equiped like myself) I dont get why they should be better in tanking then my Berserker? They have less Hitpoints and (not sure anymore have to check this) less mitigation/avoidance then my toon.
So still I'd say its like:

Guardian, Berserker, Paladin/ShadowKnight, Monk/Bruiser

like it was before.

Also the patch message said:
Highest HP Pool / Lowest Mana Pool => Monk/Bruiser
Medium HP Pool / Medium Mana Pool => Guardian/Berserker
Lowest HP Pool / Highest Mana Pool => Paladin/Shadowknight

The Pala had around 400-500 HPs less then I have (ok I totaly speced for HP/mitigation/avoidance as much as possible)
So what did I miss?

You missed the part where we were told we fall in behind Monks / Bruisers for DPS meaning tankability is weighed against damage potential, which pretty much makes Paladins fall in behind a Guardian. Just like the chart i displayed above.
I wouldnt be trying to concern HP into the equation anymore now, like you said, you went all out HP where the Paladin on the other hand has to go concentrate on STA / STR / INT, what id be most concerned about is agro control, have you tried to take agro of a Paladin who is MT now? Not too mention that they cant be as any where near offensive as we can.
Also they get self wards, so the loss of 400 - 500 HP for self heals + self wards sort of negates the fact you have 400 - 500 HP then them.
The way it was before was broken, you had Berserker being a very versatile character, could fill many roles that others couldnt, now its much more balanced except for the fact that Bruisers are tanking like a Plate class, id say thats about the only flaw atm.

bah gotta go to training now,
Pashtuk