Truck@Venekor wrote: "At high levels we're berserk for about 95% of any given battle, and this fact is taken into consideration when balancing our DPS (as it should be)."- OP See, even OP has admitted that he has berserk for about 95% of any given battle at high levels, if berserk gets a clear bonus on dps, it means berserkers get a big dps boost with same tanking capability. That's why it may cause a serious balance issue.
Couching@Crushbone wrote: This is a fair point - but I don't really want the overall DPS provided by berserk at high levels to be anything more than the overall DPS bonus given at low levels - or for the DPS of berserkers to become a balance issue. Right now because of diminishing returns the bonus we get from berserk at high levels is much less than what the abilities actually read on their descriptions. With this difference we actually see berserk providing much less of an overall bonus at high levels than it did at medium levels. I think this may have been overlooked by developers, but even if it was intentional it is not the best way of going about balancing the berserker class. If berserk becomes almost useless we have lost that ability which makes us berserkers. There's also virtually no point in upgrading berserk proccing CAs now. We should be just as excited about upgrading our berserk abilities as a necro is about upgrading their pet, an assassin about their main backstab, or a defiler about their group ward. Instead there's no particular reason to do this. The bonus of upgrading is instantly destroyed by diminishing returns.
Thank you to the OP! I too miss the days of when everyone knew we were going Berserk, but I hated the original animation. I would love to see my character burst into flames when the CA procs. That to me is what going Berserk is all about. I see where the current benefits of the CA diminish over time and where that could be an issue, but I agree that adding anything that might increase DPS might bring us out of balance. There are two things come to mind when I think of a character going berserk: DPS and invulnerability. You know, the Viking Zerker who runs head first into the battle, going absolutely crazy. That zerker is not phased by getting slashed with a sword. It just makes them even angier. That being said, why could it not give a MIT or Parry buff? I mean we already have DPS (especially with the appropriate support classes), but we seem to be lacking the ability to take a hard hit and keep the DPS going. Granted this would be a very limited increase and for a limited time, but it would still hold true to the whole Zerker image of invulnerability while you are in Berserk state. No matter the outcome, I agree with the OP that I would like to see something more definitive when we go Berserk and I would also like for our higher level (not lower level) berserk mode kick in something a little extra to better define our class. /Sign
Grimmly@Unrest wrote: Thank you for the support. I don't think anyone wants us to have out of balance DPS. That would only put us in a position to receive nerfs. Toughness related buffs to berserk may be nice and in character but I doubt we'll make that happen. Nothing makes the guards angrier than seeing us get defense related buffs. On top of that, berserking abilities tend to reduce defense rather than add to it. We are known for health regeneration though. How about a modest clicky health over time that can only be activated while berserk? this is of course only if people have problems removing the soft DPS and haste caps while berserk, which I would prefer. It's misleading to think we get +x dps and +y haste when we definitely do not because of those caps.
Well, as far as the way it looks to be berserk, perhaps what we need is a reddish screen, as if we're seeing through red, when the berserk is active. This might solve the whole "too many procs to show anything" issue. You'll just be seeing red in combat....alot. I don't have the high-end experience to really comment on this thread, but I figured I'd chip that in. I wonder if the answer isn't simply to have berserk exceed the caps, but to make it less likely to happen. In other words, as you go through the tiers, your berserkness would get better and better, but it would happen less frequently. This seems to hold true in real life experience in my life. The older I get, the less mad I am overall, but when I DO get mad, it runs far deeper. again. just a thought.
In my opinion, the root problem is the mechanic of dps and haste diminishing return. Zerker has a lot of dps and haste than guardian when berserker has berserk up, but the dps difference between zerker and guardian is not large enough due to the diminishing return of haste and dps. In other word, zerker has dps advantage than guardian in solo or group encounters but not much in raid if guardian can get optimal buffs from the group in raids. This issue should be solved since it effects not only zerker but also a lot of classes such as assassin (high dps with self buff), swashy/monk/ranger (high haste with self buff) dps in the raid. Classes without self haste and dps buff get extra dps advantage in the raids since they can get more benefits from group buffs in raids, such as guardian, bruiser and brig.
in 3 years i don't recall a single guardian coming close to my DPS, at least not by 300+ DPS on even single targets, i'm sure it happened a few times while perhaps i was going to get coffee.. *shrug* also to note, i have been OT DPS for more than half that amount of time.
Truck@Venekor wrote: Below are some quotes from the OP: "I would like the see bersekers slaying mobs with an unbridled fury that no other plate fighter can possess! So yes I do agree that there needs to be something that shows or anounces that the berserker is berserk! I don't want just a visual but the damage to back that up!" "I feel that no plate class should come close to what a berserker should really dish out period!" I suggest you "learn to read".
As far as going "BERSERK" and dishing out amazing amounts of DPS, don't you think Juggernaut and Open Wounds fulfill this role quite well?
Anjin wrote: Before you tell someone to read, read yourself. Those quotes are from Aull...the OP is Wiseman.
Anjin... such failure... Oh noes a bruiser has entered the room! No skill in this game should be quite near useless for the class that is using it. going berzerk should kick your damage up some, not just help your groupies out. This reigns true for quite a few classes. The bruiser group buff looks nice(gives about +100 ca damage) raid wide, but the problem is our CA arent huge hitters, and yes, i use masters and ad3's. On about 60% of my combat arts im running into the 50% cap which though it makes i small difference, its just that, small. I too /sign your guys petition. getting tired of useless buffs.
I think the OP is onto something here. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing something like this: When berserk triggers, you get an additional 3 abilities to choose from, something similar to the entry level druid kos AA abilities (they get an option of a heal crit buff, a spell dmg buff, and another one i don't remember). So it could even be something like: Trigger Berserk. --> Relentless Fury: Adds +2 melee crit for the duration of the berserk. ~~OR~~ Spellslayer's Rage: Stun target for 7 sec. ~~OR~~ Assaulting Force: Deals 180-260 melee damage instantly and 72-80 damage every 5 seconds for 20 seconds. Having these three abilities only useable while berserk would give the berserker options based on the situation they are presented with. This also opens up the door for changes to the Berserker EoF AA tree which currently is one of the worst of all the classes in game. AA abilities could go something like this: Enhance: Relentless Fury. --> Adds +5 combat art per rank (5 ranks). Enhance: Spellslayer's Rage. --> Drains 150 mana from target and returns it to the berserker (1 rank). Enhance: Assaulting Force. Decreases the duration of Assaulting Force by 1 second per rank (making it last 15 seconds instead of 20, thus damage occuring faster) (5 ranks). Whatever the devs decide, they definately need to change this ability a bunch, because as of now it really only helps others in raid reach the returns caps on haste and dps, the benefit to ITS OWNER'S CLASS IS MINIMAL AT BEST.
Perhaps the uselessness of Berserk as we progress in levels could be addressed by AP's. Replacing some of the unused ones on our Berserker tab. An ability that adds +whatever when berserk. Another ability that add +something_else when berserk. Etc. Of course, I'd rather it be addressed at that soft caps stage, so we actually do benefit from the listed effects of our berserk state - rather than we having to make up the shortfall in mechanics and SoE's lack of foresight.
I like the ideas coming out of this. I am not sure what SOE has in mind for berserkers and it would be nice to hear from them about it. One thing I am sure of though - we'll have a better chance of seeing changes if the proposed changes are reasonable. One thing that I think definitely needs a developer response is whether or not the diminishing returns for DPS and haste buffs had the berserker class in mind. The fact that many end game berserkers see less of an actual buff from berserk than they did in mid and even low levels suggests that this was not intended. Afterall - why even give us higher dps and haste buff values on the berserk abilities at these levels if they're going to be eaten up by these diminishing return soft caps? The only reason would be that they upgraded the CAs as usual and it was simply overlooked that all that RoK equipment had dps and haste buffs, pushing us up to the cap before berserk even triggers. As for the visual effect I have high doubts we'll see anything soon. It has been quite a while since they removed the old animation for it. I'm definitely glad they removed that one, but it doesn't seem as though they've found a solution. I honestly suggest they just use the berserker's fury (level 50 fun spell) fire effect. Honestly though there are quite a few look and feel issues with eq2 that take priority over this one.
Nice to see a mature post! I've been a long time player of eq (nov 9/99) as a warrior, and reborn in eq2 (nov 9/04?) as a berzerker. I'm not going to throw out things about number crunching, or diminishing returns, or stat caps. I'll let the smarter one discuss that, I'm just along for the ride. But as far as a visual cue, a few came to mind. Indeed the animation we had the first year or so was rightfully removed. And since the devs have taken the path of giving zerkers some type of tie in with fire here's what I'll toss into the ring. 1) Upon going zerk what if there was a burst of fire that exploded from our toons? And possibly have a flame icon above our head? 2) Taking the above notion up one notch, what about that nifty juggernaught ghost helm that appears when we are in that mode? Add fire to that sucker!! It's in game, and no other class has that, so it's zerker distinct for sure. I wouldn't think it'd be that hard to implement, just possibly fine tune and tweak perhaps. maybe it would ruin the juggernaight special-ness though? Just adding to the plate here all.
i noticed too that Fury got a fun spell that makes their eyes glow red flames... seems more like a serker fluff to me but anyway . it might be a little easier for the issue of berserk buffs to be handled at the soft cap lvl instead of trying to change things as they go later down the road. as for the animation to let us know we are berserk, another idea too is that like a poster said above make the screen go red.. but only for a split second, like sonic vision when a charm wears off. seeing red all through being berserk may screw up the player's RL vision even more than just playing im really enjoying my lowbie serker atm, just hit 24. rather hoping things get better before i know it is bad lol.
As far as zerkers needing a defining edge i agree. When you guys are berzerk it realy doesnt mean much right now. If they could tone down the amount of time you spend berzerk and up the affects from it so it evens out. What i dont feel berzerkers need is to be number 1 in the plate dps department. You have to many tools that make you a more desirable tank then either a Sk or a Pally. Cant remember the last time i hurd god we dont have a gaurd well pick up a sk hes just as good. Its alwasy well can we get a zerker up front. Dont get my wrong you are great at dps but when a zerker can out parse many classes considered "dps" i feel there is something a tad out of round there. Yes on my SK i regularly out parse many "dps" classes. but my group make up has to be very very good unlike a zerkers ability to parse. Yes i do agree that you need a true calling as a zerker. What you dont need is to be number #1 dps plate tank as i see a lot of zerkers saying.
Please for the love of god people do not support berserk-required abilities. Don't suggest anymore of them, and protest the existing ones we have. Being required to have a proc up is luck based. Or you can spec into a self-nerf click berserk that is weaker than normal zerk and ONLY has value BECAUSE we have abilities that require berserk. If we had 2 CAs that required we be in a Magical Badger illusion and then they gave us a magical badger illusion clicky at the end of a tree that took 20 points we'd all cry bloody murder. It's just poor design. You know those god awful reagent stones that mages have for example? Do you think it would stand if they were given an EoF tree ultimate that let them summon ONE stone every 90s? Of course not! That's what clicky berserk is to us. It's crap, and no one would ever take it if they didn't put punishing taglines on some of our abilities. Having abilities that even require those stones is also crap. Having -anything- require berserk is just plain asinine by the same extension. Going berserk needs to be improved. It needs to have a definitive and potent effect that can continue to scale into future expansions. Furthermore it needs to be something that other fighters don't buff. Bruisers should keep CA damage for example. We already have haste/dps, so we're left with crits or double attack. I think double-attack has enough buffs, and is more technique based, which stands against the berserkers frenzied nature, so I'd rather see a small and growing crit mod. It also helps represent the wild nature.
