Warriors, we meet again. I have been berserking since 2004, and since then we have seen quite a few changes. I'm not here to whine about nerfs at all. Many of our nerfs were very appropriate. There were the days in which there were clear differences between berserkers and guardians. At the time, the only real reason to play guardian was raiding, because their depressingly low DPS made soloing and small grouping a chore - but in raids they could be buffed to literal invincibility. We berserkers at the time had great toughness but there was a visible difference between our tanking ability and that of guardians. We made up for this with DPS, meaning that we were the choice for small groups. Months and years have passed, and we have been chipped away at little by little until now there aren't too many differences between us and guards. Guards do better single target damage than we do, while we still hold reign over AoE melee. In the end our survivability is reasonably balanced with guards, although they still come out with an edge in raid situations. I'm perfectly okay with this. Now on to the present! Going berserk! Right now - going berserk doesn't mean much. If you parse us when we're berserk versus when we're not there is a statistically significant difference between our damage ratings before end game. However you really do have to parse us to find this difference. I can't tell when I'm berserk unless I look at the little icon. At high levels we're berserk for about 95% of any given battle, and this fact is taken into consideration when balancing our DPS (as it should be). The problem is that going berserk is not noticeable at all. When a warrior goes into a berserker frenzy it should be kind of a big deal, right? These days with diminishing returns on the buffs provided by berserk and the fact that much of our gear gives us those same buffs we are seeing less and less of a return on berserking. Although I have not run the stats on this, I would imagine that in tier 9 end game raids, possibly even solo, there will NOT be a statistically significant difference in zone-wide mean DPS with or without going berserk. It is time for us to petition for changes to berserk effects! If we as berserkers want to see some changes, this is where it should be. I see some people calling for changes to make us tougher (balance us more with guards as raid tanks). I think that's slightly out of character. We're fine as raid tanks given the fact that we're berserkers. Here's what I think should happen to berserking abilities: Low level berserk abilities should remain the same (tier 5 and below). These are fine because you don't start seeing diminishing returns on those buffs in those levels. Tiers 6-9 berserk abilities should add a critical hit bonus. OR Temporarily remove soft stat caps (remove diminishing returns) on DPS and haste only. Visually I'd love to see some sort of effect or animation for going berserk but this seems to be out of reach. Back in the day we had an animation for this. We would glow red and flex (or raise weapon). The problem was that berserk effects kicked in whether they were active already or not. With the number of times this happened per battle we were basically stuck in that visual effect, ruining all our other animations and making us look silly. If there was a way around this, giving us a decent going berserk animation I would love it - but that's probably too much to ask. Any suggestions?
/signed I think its totally ridicules that a Guardian out damages in any field period, they are or were supposed to be the BIG tank by design, not the best tank that also does more damage then the berserker, who cares if we do slightly more damage in AE, most of the time its single pulls or you have some kind of CC. Yes we need a change, our AA tree is a joke and I agree some kind of simple animation would be good, whats wrong with a simple glow while in Zerk, hell even a verbal cue would be better thhen nothing. _V
I keep hearing how Guardians can now out DPS us on single targets, but I've yet to see it. Our old Guardian was specced pretty much identical to me and I'd always beat him single target, even with him tanking. If I was missing some of my support classes he might beat me, but all things being equal it was never even close. We have a new Guardian now that is OT (I'm MT) and he doesn't even come close, but he's specced for tower shield so that's no surprise. I know in RoK raiding I'm regularly breaking 3k single target DPS and we just barely started hitting RoK zones. I'd be willing to bet by the end of RoK when I get all my RoK raid gear I'll be able to push 4k single target. I have to agree about Berserk though. Adding +crits or something at higher level would be good. I know I usually run around 120ish DPS mod standing still in a raid and that's already into diminishing returns. I've seen 200+ DPS mod plenty of times. Haste is almost as bad considering I'm around 40ish just with self buffs. I think it'd be cool if we got some sort of visual effect on berserk too. I don't miss the days of the red glowy either- day one berserker here- but something like a growth effect would be cool- I go berserk and grow 50% or something. If they did that though I think it should just effect our self berserk, not the group one.
Add other damage modifiers to berserk proc(not the group one tho), like crits/DA/CA damage. I think that could work. And btw berserkers never wore leather in EQ2
I've never been out parsed by a same-level guard either. I do hear of it happening, though, and I do think it's possible. If you look at the combat arts themselves (there's a great comparison thread here somewhere) all the guard CAs come out on top. What gets us ahead are our buffs and unique abilities like rampage, open wounds, juggernaut. I suggested a growth effect for berserk about a year ago. They just need to find some way of overcoming the mechanics of the berserk proc. If you look at your overall haste and dps buffs in a given battle you will notice that they fluctuate. That's because of one of the two berserk procs dropping. If this also droped our growth effect we would grow and shrink a dozen times per battle. One solution would be having the initial growth effect lasting a few minutes... say three minutes. That way it wouldn't drop when the proc drops.
That's what you get when you want to implement dozens and dozens of classes into a game like this. In time, other classes whine and whine cause everyone wants the same damage as the xxx class and to be as good a tank as the xxxx class. In the end, you get a mixed-up salad of very similar classes, loosing uniqueness to the class you made since the beginning. What Zerkers need is definition, not in the Tank part, but in our ZERKER aspect I refuse to play another class, but i sure see how Guardians took the DPS department while ruling in the Tanking arena. They wanted the best of both worlds and they got it. Now it's time for the Zerker within to come out again and really make a difference in gameplay.
I also got upset when I saw that you said we wore leather... that is inaccurate since that was an EQ1 design... Zerker wore Plate the whole time in EQ2 even in beta... it was part of the design from the initial archetype stages... we were the more dps centered non-crusader plate tank that is like the "evil twin" to the Guardian... BRAWLERS wear leather they didn't need to mirror that.... if we wore leather they would have been using our name for what the bruiser is today... that's design. However I do agree... a HUGE chunk of the time I am at like 160-200 DPS and haste... which means my zerk bonuses (28-29% I think it is... not at home right now) is actually divided by 4... so when I zerk I see a REAL increase of only 7% haste and DPS... not really awe inspiring IMHO. My proposed fix would rather be that short term spikes were calculated separately and are immune to the caps... as it stands today I can get my crits and double attacks pretty close to 100% as well and that's also just going to get worse with each expansion. In EQ1 for bards you had "over the cap" haste songs that didn't obey normal stacking and cap laws imposed on other buffs... I think any short term spikes including those from proc jewelry should be treated in that manner where they are immune from caps and stacking to keep that ability viable no matter what happens with caps as the game releases expansions. Since there is currently no petition for what I would prefer to see done I will just /sign as well... but if SOE sees this thread and reads mine in it's entirety this is another viable solution.
I have now edited out the bit about leather armor as yes it did pertain to eq1. Now, back to the task at hand. It seems like berserkers want some more class definition. I'm sure there are plenty of people in game that don't post on the forum that agree with us here. Please show your support, berserkers!
While I do agree with your suggestions, and can clearly see there is an issue here, I'm afraid it will only fall on deaf ears... we are the red-headed stepchild... During the weeks and months leading up to RoK, a good portion of the zerker community rallied and tried to get something changed for the better... be it the horrendous EoF tree or the DPS issue or anything that would seperate us more from guards, knowing that come RoK guards would be on a near even playing field in regards to zerks DPS due to the addition of the extra AA, as well as other aspects that were in place pre-RoK, we tried. We were shutdown by everyone across the board... told to leave it alone, told to take the sit and wait approach, to not jump to conclusions... well now we have waited, and here we are... I don't mean to be bitter but... what can you expect. Either way I'm behind anything that will make the zerk a zerk again...
I wore leather, from 1-9 Anyways, something like +100 ca dmg, +10 double attack, +10 crit added to the beserk proc directly or via AAs would be great. But we all know, there is absolutely noone at SOE who gives a .. about Zerkers and it will never happen...
It's hard to tell what will happen. I think that it's safe to say that someone at SOE does in fact at least read the forum. No class things they get enough exposure or developer time... Even classes that appear to have it great like Necromancers find reasons to complain. In fact right now in the shadowknight forum there's a thread started by someone who really loves the class. It gets trolled by people who aren't happy with some aspect of the shadow knight role. I have no complaints about our role - or even about our DPS in most cases. All I am interested in is reclaiming the berserker identity with a clear event and advantage when going berserk
I'm with you. I played a zerker in EQ1. I wanted to play one here too, but didn't expect to enjoy them being in plate an all. It's why I named my main Mynach back when I started (welsh for monk), but then got into, going with the rationale that berserkers 500 years on could go with the armour of the day. And I so enjoyed dual-weilding, for the simple reason I couldn't in EQ1, and it felt so right, a savage looking weapon in each hand. From a look and feel perspective, while playing there ain't anything going on in regards to our itemisation or arts, and specifically going berserk, that reinforces our imagery of a berserker. Except for our class hats, and have to wait 60 odd levels till we get our first one of them, until they get round to adding a hat quest to the level 20's armour quests. While that old animation of the red glow and raising sword was a tad annoying, and repetitive, I would enjoy the visual heads up of us being in a berserk state. Not an animation then, but that red glow "whoomphing" into existance around us, not interupting other combat animations, but appearing alongside whatever other animations are playing out. From a mechanical perspective, yeah, that offensive edge we're purportedly to hold over guardians has slowly been chipped away. We've got no extra defensive abilities, but they've got more damage. The disparity have been felt more keenly since the Kunark abortion. With one of our class defining aspects, our AE's, having to gather dust as we encounter single target mob after single target mob. I feel the game benefits from that mob diversity, and needs to see the return of linked mob encounters. It's not just the zerker class that is defined away from its sub-class mirror in their concentration of encounter based abilities (warlock over wizard, etc). I'm no number cruncher. Parsing and mathematically min-maxing doesn't motivate me as much as others. Though, I certainy appreciate the efforts of those that do it. If some redressing of the offensive/defensive balance of the zerker/guardian is to come, then having it come via our berserk state sounds elegantly simple. I'd love that, and the suggestions such as pushing through soft-caps and diminishing returns of the abilities it gives us. I'd also rather enjoy the stamina line requiring a round shield rather than a buckler. It fits the imagery better, chewing on the edge of such a shield as we start frothing at the mouth and working ourselves into a berserk frenzy before a fight. Bucklers should be the featured shield of rogues - hell, it's why a swashbuckler is called a swashbuckler. During that period of our history when light swords were carried by the young men, they'd swash against the buckler they also had clipped to their belt. But I guess that needs to wait until there's someone doing the itemisation that understand the classes. Apparently bucklers are mostly used by healers.
When I see a guardian outparse me, maybe I'll start to be worried. I haven't seen one even come close. Currently, I CAN tank, but I PREFER to DPS, its what I'm most suited to doing. Dunno how much more definition I could really use. Yes, berserk is not as important or as effective as it used to be. That was alleaviated a bit with the need to be berserk to use Juggernaut, Vision of Madness' highest level of effectiveness, Adrenaline, Unyielding Will not killing us... we do get other things because of our Berserkness.
i cant say i know of any of the high lvl issues that are brought up here, my highest serker in my EQ2 career was 43... and i couldn't stand being a taunt and kick machine of a warrior in EQ1. however... i agree going berserk just isn't a big deal anymore. Personally I think serkers should get a little bit of a damage bonus when dual wielding. Like one of the posters above said... there is just something vicious and intimidating about a warrior in a frenzy swinging 2 blades around. Going berserk should affect str and damage output directly, not just how fast you swing. a small DPS mod does not mean much imo. I think either a % increase or a flat increase to auto attack and CA damage would be appropriate. another thing is since guards got beefed up in the damage department, serker should get beefed up defensively. maybe some more direct mit and HP when in def stance? just cuz serkers wish to do damage doesn't mean they do not wish to tank some heavy hitting mobs once in a while right? anyway, that is just my 2cp. I can't afford more than that, i ain't rich ya know
I agree with the need to change *something* about Berserk. Right now, the only time I even pay attention to it is after I've hit Unyeilding Will X__x Something is wrong with that...for a "class defining ability" to be so easily overlooked? My bruiser friend when we duo with my zerk he always mentions that he loves the group zerk buffs...and I'm like "Did it even proc!?" Even a visual cue or something...like maybe a visual effect similar to the flaming fist fun spell when berserk procs or something. As for making the ability stronger...I think a flat +comabt art damage or melee damage would be better than the capping haste imo.
Very interesting! I always liked for there to be distinguishing traits amongst the classes and I feel that there is very little of that anymore across the board. I have never had a problem with being in a situation where I hear " let the pally do this one cause he is more suited for the situation". That has never harmed me one bit because I just feel that there needs to be instances where a "certain class" just out shines others in a particular situation. As of now I totally feel that berserkers are not truely fitting the description of what berserkers should be. This is do to many things like other tanks yelling "we don't have no ae's like zerkers". Now that was just an example and nothing that I have actually read but I would say that crusaders are possibly rivialing bersekers in the ae department nowdays. At this very moment I would like to see the berserker be a [ I cannot control my vocabulary] BERSERKER! I would like the see bersekers slaying mobs with an unbridled fury that no other plate fighter can possess! So yes I do agree that there needs to be something that shows or anounces that the berserker is berserk! I don't want just a visual but the damage to back that up! In all reality I am fine with the fact that guardians are elite tanks they should be, sk's and and paladins can solo better and they should because they can heal, but when a berserker is present all should know that there is a fire and rage that is unquinchable where ever a berserker stands! I am very passionate about this class and feel zerks just fall short of what they are truely intended to be. I feel that no plate class should come close to what a berserker should really dish out period! I just want distinguishing traits that separates guards, sk's, paladins, and zerkers. I rolled this toon understanding that I wasn't gonna be the toughest or the best soloer, but that I was gonna be the offensive beast of the plate tanks that could take some hits but dish out some rage inspired dps in return. Thanks for your time and I find that we do need something that will define us as bersekers.
Easy to say a Guardian can't beat a Berserker on single target DPS, but I'd love to see some proof. Too much is assumed due to group buffs, situation and actual ability to play a class. Also remember that Berserkers can get away with a tremendous amount in easy situations (juggernaut for example). Put the berserker in a situation where they actually have to put some time into survival and it's different.
As for the thread - the OP wants everything. The ability to tank and yet dish out amazing DPS. If you want DPS over tanking, roll a rogue. If you want tanking over DPS, then a berserker/guardian is right. Remember as well that to get the most out of any class requires utility behind it.
For those of you just now joining the thread please note that I wrote early on in my original post that many of the nerfs to the berserker class over the years have been justified. I don't think we should be dishing out scout type DPS while tanking like a guard. I do think a guard should have a higher level of tanking ability than a berserker. I'd like to see our tanking ability remain where it is, and have some simple tweaks done to the berserk skill to bring more class definition to the berserker. It seems that the vast majority of responses to this center around simply noticing when their character goes berserk - that it should be a big deal. No one even notices when our class defining ability has procced at this point. As far as stats go - I can't think of another class that sees their class defining abilities dwindle into non-existence the way berserk does at end game. With diminishing returns our current end-game berserker DPS and haste buffs actually provide less DPS and haste than they did in Tier 3 because most end game berserkers hit the soft cap on DPS and haste before berserk kicks in.
Anjin wrote: If you actually read the posts in this thread, then you would know that you're completely wrong... All the OP wants is some class defining abilities for the berserker class... not "omg [I cannot control my vocabulary] bbq scout dps". Learn to read... "All I am interested in is reclaiming the berserker identity with a clear event and advantage when going berserk." - OP
