FYI -- Pet changes intentional and staying -- More nerfage on the way (- 1 DPS teir)

Somehow I just knew you'd chime in on this Magus. Out of everything I wrote all you heard was that one line. My point was I'm not really concerned with the tiers, I'm playing Necro cause I just like Necro. Most of the ones whining about the Tiers are ones that picked their class based on the Tiers. If at the begining Summoners would of been advertised in the tier tree as tier 1 dps then all those whiners would be summoners. That was the point of that line.
Magus` wrote:
First off, it doesn't matter what we the players think, when it comes to us being balanced or not.

We *are* doing more then we're supposed to.
Let's take a look at one line from your response. How do you know we are doing more dps than we're suspose to? Where is the hard number quoted by a dev of what we should be doing? The only thing saying we are doing more dps than we should is the other players and "it doesn't matter what we the players think, when it comes to us being balanced or not."
Moorgard wrote:
The relative damage rankings posted a while back were clearly stated not to be absolutes. They aren't true at all level ranges and in all circumstances or against every kind of opponent. They were posted as a general guideline only.


"That is a hard fact, and nothing you say can prove otherwise." So do us all a favor and s.t.f.u on the subject.

I hate loosely defined things like that. What is the hardest things to solo? Sure wizards can solo things I can't. But I can still solo any named or non named mobs thats ^ or lower... I can solo any non named ^^ that's L71 or lower. I can solo yellow ^^^ if I have enough room... I've almost soloed the ^^^ named ghost mob on Bonemire using the other ghost mobs as pets. Only reason I failed is cuz I got adds and had to FD... But if I spent the time clearing the area and planning it, I'm pretty darn sure I could do it...

Now, that said... its not easy, it takes a tone of time sometimes, but I guarantee you my Inq, Troub, and probably my ranger couldn't come close to doing it...

Bottom line is that Summoners benefit from having the safety net of hiding behind out pets. For this safety and utility, summoners are supposed to be slightly behind the curve in DPS to compensate. Currently we're well ahead of the curve.

I think way too many summoners haven't ever played any other class and don't know what the standard difficulty is, or they have played other classes and just made summoners to be in the ubber class... I see WAY too many in the latter category... like that guy that went from ranger, to necro and whines about classes being nerfed... Its obvious his only goal is to play the most over the top class.

I expect to see hell and flames gallor when summoners do get balanced... not becasue they won't still be playable, but becasue many of you have grown accustom to being a little too good...

Guy I went to college with used to work at Enron. He was making a good 6 figure salary, which in the gulf coast area is a real nice salary. Now, I know the guy, he wasn't the brightest bulb on the block and he used to always brag how much money he made for the amount of work he actually had to do. When they went belly up and he had to look for a new job, he constantly complained about how the job offers he was getting didn't pay as much and actually required more work!

I look at some of you like him. You simply don't know how good you've got it until you loose it and have to look at the world from the same perspecive as everyone else. But by then you feel entitled to havinging more than everyone else and you feel somehow robbed.
Message Edited by Zald on 04-09-200603:21 PM

The part you're ignoring is it stops being an accurate general guideline when every 2-bit summoner is out-DPSing T1 classes.

While yes, there will alwyas be exceptions to the tiers, when EVERYONE is an exception, it's broken.

Is it some Universal Law that summoners can't be a t1 dps class or was it an arbitrary decision made by the devs? I'll bet it was the latter.

All I'm saying is that this whole class-balancing act isn't working and one way to solve that problem is by re-assessing the map's relationship to the territory. Instead of continuously mucking about with the classes to make them fit into an idea of where they should be that was conceived before the game went live and became a reality, the devs could simply edit a few lines of text and voiala -- the summoner class is now where it's "supposed" to be. I mean, heck, they completely changed the dynamics of the first 20 levels of the game, what's the big deal about changing the tier rankings?

That being said, it might be better if they nerfed the heck out of the summoner class. There are too many other necros on my server as it is.

While they technically COULD do that, they are NOT going to, since that's not what they want.

They do not want us being T1, as such, we will not remain T1.

Why exactly would i be given a spot on raids if i do tier2 dps ?

Magus are you going to ensure my spot in raid after our dps is nerfed because of you. You will be solely responsible for making my game experience terrible.

I couldn't care less what your guild decides to do if your DPS is dropped slightly.

I'm not the one making the decisions, I'm just trying to make you realize what's coming. The DEVS do not want us where we are. The DEVS are the ones that will be lowering us.

The rest of you are just trying to hold on to something we shouldn't have.

Need I remind you of rangers? They were doing WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more then T1 DPS, and they were adjusted back down to T1. Sony is not going to simply leave us broken because we like it. Rangers loved being DPS kings where nobody could ever beat them, but they didn't get to keep their brokenness.

I still dont see who is saying that the DPS is too much and in what situations. Just saying "Theres To Much" leaves too much out of the picture. Are they knocking down the high end and bringing up the low end. I dont hear any talk of the instances when we are at the bottom of the DPS tree when we shouldnt be. Mob dies before we can get anything off, the other casters nuke it down to cinders and we and out pets are at the bottom. Gonna correct that? Should we hold back in a group with a poorly played Wizzy just so we dont have to listen to them whine everytime the parse numbers pop up?

Our placement on the DPS tree is dependent on sooo many things, type of group, type of mob, the quality of the players behind the other toons, do the other casters have good food and water, that its impossible to take any set of numbers and have them mean anything in a general sense. There going to do this because of the cries of the other class's and thier raw parse numbers.

Group 1 DPS TREE
Necro Pet
Wizzy 1
Ranger
Necro
Wizzy 2
Bruiser
Mystic

What you dont see is that wizzy 2 was a goofball and kept nuking before the tank could get aggro and spend most of the fight dead, and wizzy1 didnt have any food and water with him and kept running out of manna as we were rapid fire pulling the mobs.
Put some quality players behind those Wizzards and the Tree looks complelty different, not only are they doing smarter damage, the mob dies quicker and reduces the DPS the Necro gets off. So please refrain from the "I was in group the other day" posts unless you include everything that is pertinent, just throwing numbers out there is meaningless.
Message Edited by Kassabba on 04-10-200607:14 AM
Message Edited by Kassabba on 04-10-200607:15 AM
Message Edited by Kassabba on 04-10-200607:19 AM

Here's enough reading for you Kassbba with parses and other stuff since we have been through this over the last few months time and time again.


http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/...message.id=9316&view=by_date_ascending&page=1

I don't want to post my parses... They're shameful. In my raid last night, we had 3 summoners...

1. We 3 summoners were top 3 DPS in almost every single fight...

2. Combined at the end of the raid, we 3 summoners damage EQUALLED the CUMULATIVE damage of EVERY OTHER PERSON AT THE RAID!

For those that can't do math, 3 players churned out more damage that 21 other players when all was said and done.

3. some fights the gap between us and everyone else was negligable. no problem there, but honestly, those were fights with adds and other things that slow summoners down.

4. There were at least 3 fights vs mobs that didn't have omni-directional AoEs and stayed up through their duration where each summoner doubled or trippled the damage of the next closest player... We had total damage numbers of 120K, 130k, 125k... The next was our wizard with 35k! I don't know his spell configuration, but I know he has at least a few L65+ masters.

Yes, all of this is raid stuff. And yes, there were fights were summoners weren't the shiznit, but it's just wrong for numbers in ANY case to be so lopsided.

Prince, if you need to be this grossly overpowered to be of use to your guild they should drop you now. I know that my guild will bring me on raids cuz I'm a good player... The same way we bring the "worthless" wizards now... I mean heck if 3 summoners can outdamage the rest of the raid, we really should just recruit 3 or 4 more and only bother taking a tank and some healers.

Again, I LOVE the class as it is, the same way I LOVE getting anything else for free. Its a BLAST doing that kind of damage in raids. Its a BLAST seeing how high we can push the ball up the hill and how much we can dominate. Heck its even fun seeing how much agro you can generate. But its not fair. I'll enjoy it while it lasts, but I have absolutely no doubt it will eventually change.
Message Edited by Zald on 04-10-200601:06 PM

I guess the question is how rigid are the rules. How HARD do you want it to make it for a DoT class to surpass T1 DPS for that fight. Should it be impossible?

How do you remove the benefit of a long fight from a class whose damage depends on how long the fight lasts?

The only 'solution' is a hard cap, a max dps that the class can do and it gets truncated.... and I /PUKE on that idea.

Listen... if a class is clicking skills while another skill is being used, always with something in the queue, never wasting a second... while another group member is waiting even one second in between skill uses... they will jump a DPS tier.

If someone is uses a HO, or the mob is resistant to some kind of dmg, DPS teirs get thrown WAAAAY out of wack.

Again, I'm mostly worried that they pet necos against solo raid mobs, and treat that as the 'norm' and put in some nonsense rule to and clumsily address what is the result of dozens of variables in that specific case. The dumbfire pet nerf, due to epic mobs and their 360degree AoE, was surgically designed to hit at summoner DPS against raid mobs. A blanket 'scaling' of all skill DPS would be much more heavy handed and really hurt those outside of the regular raiding community IMO.




Mr. Supa'Dupa' Raider here seems to be stroking' the ole e-peni with multiple hands. Not only is he able to reeeeeaaaaaaly exploit any imbalance, he is also smart enough to know it, and smart enough to tell all of the clueless class fanbois whats what, EVEN BEFORE the devs do... so there!

Psycotherepists call it "projection"... obviously puts more thought/time into his player than normal, has exceled with it, and now assumes his experience is the general expereince... the bane of class balance arguments... which ironically has led to the rise of the myopic and deceptive concept of DPS numbers.




Message Edited by Gargamel on 04-10-200604:46 PM

Rest of your raid/guild sucks then. Assassins are T1 DPS, I have no problem doing 1400dps without decapitate, 1800+ with it on named t7 raid mobs, rangers can do 1000, brigs get near 1000 etc when played by good people.I dont feel necros should be nerfed, however I feel conjurors should be as they are way way out of line in regards to single target dps and AE.
Message Edited by Alza on 04-10-200603:35 PM

I've raided a ton, and with a high end guild (we were first to kill Godking on our server) and I have yet to see a parse where a summoner did 3x the damage of the next lowest class. Not saying it can't happen, but it would be very very atypical. Depending on the mob, resists, etc., how long my pet lives, I've been top DPS, but mostly am close to the top. Our assass and rangers usually come out on top. We also have a zerker who not infrequently is top dps. He's fabled, mastered, and an incredible player.

My set-up allows me to constantly have a spell in the cue ready to pop. I often beat out other necros and summoners in the raid.

Hey Zaid, how do you usually fare in groups? Accounting for buffs of course.It's been my experience that this is a raid problem as far as Necro's are concerned, grouping I seem about right.

Ok, I will say that the stupid high damage numbers were in fights were I was timing Undead Tide to cast just after a mob AoEd, in order to catch as many corpses up as possible.

Deson, absolutely, its only a raid issue. In groups nothing special. I mean in groups mobs die so fast I don't even use dumbfires, and outside of raids I only use Undead Tide for extra DPS when I'm soloing tougher mobs.

Don't mind Zald, he was a bloody warden who became a necro after LU13.

Ya, summoners do t1 dps under the right conditions. So they should be nerfed eh ?

Zald did you even read that post before posting your crap here.. Read a bit down and you will see

Single Target Mobs, with AOE's:
Wizard 700-900
Berserker 800ish
Bruiser 700-900
Monk 700-900
Necromancer 600-800
Ranger 450-700
Warlock 450-700
Conjuror 400-600
Assassin 400-600

Group Mobs, with AOE's:
Berserker 1100
Bruiser 1000ish
Necromancer 1000
Monk 950ish
Conjuror 900ish
Warlock 850ish
Wizard High 900s
Ranger 800
Assassin 550

And every [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] raid mob and sub-raid mobs and their puny subs have AOE now. I don't know what the hue and cry is about.

Notice I said next highest was our wizards... We really don't have many rangers in our guild for some reason. Don't know how they parse out, but seems most posts say they still parse higher than wizards, so maybe they'd be in the gap someplace.

Also my numbers are going to be scewed by the fact that the faster we do damage, the less chance other classes have to do damage. I've been the only summoner on a few raids, and no the damage rankings aren't so wide becasue I by myself can't out damage a raid. But when you get several summoners on a raid they can generate enough damage to shorten an encounter by alot.

Actually my main was an Inqu... and yes I started a necro after LU13, and your point?

Ahhh you don't have one. Good redirection attempt though.

Yes, AoEs kill dumbfires, but they can be timed around. Hey, you post your parses showing necroes doing 120 damage for an entire fight... So what, I'm voicing my experience...

SoE knows what they know. We'll let them be the judge. hehe
Message Edited by Zald on 04-10-200603:55 PM

Wow, your DPS sucks our is more like this.
Single Target with AoE's

Conjuror -1000 -1300
Wizard - 1000 - 1300
Necromancer 900 -1200

That's why I keep askig the questions. That looks like T2 to me even in a raid. why are the disparities so great even in raid guilds?

Thanks Zald.
Message Edited by Deson on 04-10-200603:41 PM