Focused Fighter Feedback

Discussion in 'Fighters' started by Xelgad, Jan 11, 2013.

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  1. Erszebeth Active Member

    I can get behind that, and thinking on it, the only place the damage reduction is OP is in the 32 second duration, so I can understand that.
  2. Rhita Member

    For adrenaline, I think it should be changed to 25% damage reduction 25% of inc damage is healed. Kinda a halfway point without crossing the "OP" line people will whine about.
    Estred likes this.
  3. Troubledoer New Member

    Haven't really seen it hit upon yet and its been a big pet peeve of mine for a while for the fighters that I have played / play ...
    (people who play these classes full time please chime in and to reduce the wall of text not putting down things that seem like they are where they should be)
    >Fighter Mythical buffs<
    Across the board damage portion of their procs are almost unnoticeable

    Shadowknight (played since 2005):
    Seething hatred 12% proc
    300% of health regained from lifetaps will be applied as hate to engaged targets.
    Sounds good in theory, however how often are you not instantly healed by your priest or completely warded for the damage that would have been done leaving you at or very near full health the majority of the time (or dead).

    Touch of Death
    Forces target to change their selected target to caster instantly. Hate gain is increased by 10% for the duration.
    Will absorb physical attacks when the amount is greater than 60% of the targets maximum health.
    This would be a good affect if it would actually work all the time (like a previous poster commented)

    For Shadowknights I would like to see the proc portion redone preferably something to increase my survivability as well as the clicky working 100% of the time. (My view of a SK is usually different from the majority by wanting more tanking ability and usually the populace is wanting more DPS)

    Paladin
    Applies Holy Avenger when activated. Lasts for 24.0 seconds.
    Summons a Holy Avenger that transfers life from surrounding enemies to your allies.
    Again sounds good however the last time I used this ability the dumbfire pet was killed (I don't have any parses to how well this heals however assuming it is decent it would be nice to not be killable or just make it a type of DoT)

    Berserker
    Constant effect: 25% of the damage done to the berserker will be added back to the attack as additional hate.
    Similar to the SK effect however it is constantly on, but it seems that wards blocking the damage incoming which blocks the hate. (Someone experienced with this please step in!)

    Guardian
    On a successful melee attack this spell has a chance to cast Wrath of the Warrior on target of attack. Lasts for 12.0 seconds. This effect will trigger an average of 2.4 times per minute.
    Inflicts 616 - 923 slashing damage on target
    Reduces all physical damage done to target by 5%
    Ok so tell me why the supposed main raid tank of the game procs a damage reduction when the majority (Monk and SK excluded) have it as a constant buff?

    On a successful melee attack this spell has a chance to cast Shielding of Vel'Arek on caster. Lasts for 10.0 seconds. This effect will trigger an average of 1.8 times per minute.
    Makes caster immune to Stun effects
    Makes caster immune to Fear effects
    Makes caster immune to Root effects
    Makes caster immune to Stifle effects
    Makes caster immune to Daze effects

    Same affect as some red adorns which takes away from the specialty however frees up a red adorn slot (guardians chime in)

    Bruiser
    Seems pretty solid aside from proccing 12% crit chance which is pretty outdated. Maybe make it a crit bonus buff (someone with a lot of experience with bruisers step in?)

    Monk
    On a successful melee attack this spell has a chance to cast Serene Strike on target of attack. Lasts for 12.0 seconds. This effect will trigger an average of 2.4 times per minute. If melee attack is used, only the primary weapon can trigger this effect.
    Inflicts 586-1088 crushing damage on target.
    Caster will Double Attack on 15.0% of attacks.
    Buffs your DA (which you probably have at or near 600) less than a single piece of gear gives you making it less than useful

    Gives caster an extra 4.0% mitigation to their worn armor.
    Again minimal gain which can be attained through an adorn and bruiser counterparts get similar ability through aa

    Gives caster a 50.0% chance to strikethrough a successful avoidance check.
    The bread and butter of their mythical buff

    Increases caster's chance to block by 15.0%
    In my opinion switch this to the same as the bruiser's 10% physical damage reduction.

    The purpose of this post is to spark conversation on making the buffs up to par with what they should be for each class.
  4. Estred Well-Known Member

    I, uh... didn't realize how small my class Mythical was in compared to the other Myths. When you put it like that... :confused: wow. Well here is my 2 cents on the tanks I play or have played recently.

    Wrath of Vel'Arek (Guardian)

    Shielding of Vel'Arek: Make it an immunity to ALL CC types, currently Guards can still be mezzed and many raid bosses still lock us up even while shielding is up. I would love if perhaps this gave us immunity to "Cannot Cast Beneficial Spells" Type of CC that. This would make it once again better than Velium Dominion.
    - That or add a 10-25% Stoneskin Chance while active, not sure of actual % value though.

    Wrath of the Warrior: The Damage of this is very hard to notice and could easily be doubled or tripled and apply the damage every 3 seconds (4 ticks total). Then it would be noticeable again. The DR could probably be restored to its original 10% this late in the game if it is going to remain tied to a proc.

    The Truth of Marr (Paladin)

    Only complaint I have is that it is a Dumbfire Pet. With the exception of Soloing I would rather get another Snap-Taunt out of this or something. That or just make the life-transfer passive (No pet?) but a reduced amount if needed.

    Please other classes fill in the blanks or if there is a better suggestion pipe in :D
  5. Netty Member

    Berserk myth is fine imo.

    Guard myth is kinda meh tho... Always hated what they did with it... You get the same effect of a red adorn. i like the idea of adding more CC types to the buff to make it special.

    Pally mythical pet klickie is even worthless when you solo... So that should be changed into something els imo. One cool idea would be to make it a group heal that heals the group in aoe for 3% of max health everytime the pally take physical damage. Still as a klickie same duration. Need to keep it low since it would proc like mad on aoe fights. And tbh pallys are a healer hybrid so why not... Would be awsome change imo. Maybe im alone in thinking so but still. Not sure what the reuse on it is? it might need to be fix if its up to often if this change.

    SK myth.. tbh i dont really see much wrong with the proc. Its not much but its something atleast. It do work on reaver if i dont mistaken.

    Monk myth is fine imo.

    Bruiser myth is fine.



    . ,
  6. Silzin Active Member

    Monk here. There have been several monks chiming in already and they have good feedback, but I will recap and make my own points.

    Taunts – I think that Taunts need to be a lot larger, at least in Defensive stance. Like my ST Taunt I think should do 200-400k with the 4 sec recast, and the group scale all other Taunts all of that. Next part of Taunts, I think that anything that downs Threat needs to do damage of some type when in Reckless, for all tanks. I also think that all Positionals that are not Rescue should be – Positionals for ALL tank when in Reckless.

    As posted in the Brawler KpS Tree Feedback- Brawler Int line end line, Eagle Shriek and Eagle Patience. This ability should be a Defensive ability that can not be used. Can we get it changed to add a 10-30 sec duration to the current effect on Eagle Shriek. The effects of each may need a bit of adjusting also.

    Chi – It’s a nice ability for leveling and Gearing up, so if changing it will brake that don’t change it, but it would be nice if it was a maintained buff that has some or most of the stats of the original Chi. Remember that the nice think about it know is the high % of Reuse. That part needs to stay as much as possible.

    Mantis Star – Can you remove the 2 meter min range from this please? I cannot maintain it on a named I am tanking without moving way out of heal range.

    Enhance Tranquil Vision Monk Tree - can we get this changed to a seperit ability from our avoid buff. Since in most raids we want to have the avoid part on the MT if we are not the MT, and if we are the MT we cant use our Avoid buff. Also could you rase the % Transferred to … 10 or 15%?

    On that note can you make it so we can have our Avoid buff on someone and have a nether tank Avoid buff on us Please?

    I like the ideas somewhere here about changing most all of the Shadow Line Fighter abilities to be useful. Since so much of them are useless at this point. You know it would be nice to use Defensive abilities to get more Defensive when we want to.

    As stated Earler Fluid Combination – this ability needs to have its damage increased or add something to it, or since most other classes have a Defensive ability on their DPS side. Make it a Defensive ability.

    Winds of Salvation – this is the only Defensive Prestige ability I know of that does not help in any way the tank using it. It’s a very powerful ability, don’t get me wrong, but it’s all but useless in play. I think just making it so it could be cast on the monk would be OP, but in its current state I only take the left side when I need the Health and Avoid from Winds of Retribution (please don’t touch Winds of Retribution).

    This is about all I can think of for Monks and I don’t feel comfortable about posting for any other tanks so this is it for me for know.
  7. Liav Active Member

    Monks can cure all detrimentals.

    Bruisers can cure all detrimentals... except noxious.

    Is there a reason for that?
  8. Prrasha Well-Known Member

    The same reason the paladin AA cure can cure all detrimentals... except physical. I guess. And most mages can only cure arcane or arcane-plus-one-other-type.
  9. Stuk Puk New Member

    Actually good idea. Tho I get used to have lower duration. It makes game more intresting, because you have to work with other tanks to swap agro and stuff. Honestly, I wouldn't change it.

    If you still have problems with using Combination, you should stop playing Monk. Really, how hard is to align on hotbars all 9 CA in group of 3 to trigger Combination, and click them from left to right?

    It is. Examine Fluid when you have 1 trigger and do that again when you have 5 - the damage rise up with each increment.
  10. Stuk Puk New Member

    Aye, true.
    Not really, if you want to have all classes balanced. Ofc we all want to do higher DPS, but giving major boost to damage will break it. I'd be better with increasing number of triggers from 5 to 10.
    I think if you could change it from single CA to encounter CA, using some AA choices would be better.
    Aye, Peel sometimes has lots of problem to work. Usually on memwiping mobs, when you drop hate to 0, takes Peel, Hidden Openings and Rescue to be back at top hate.

    Monks class key thing for tanking is lots of single snaping abilities. With mobs memwiping alot, I'd either boost them, by making Provoking Stance adding more hate positioning to Peel, Hidden Openings, Sneering Assault and Rescue... or just Rescue, as it's the weakest of all of them.

    Plus make them TRIGGER (hate positioning) when mob has damage immunity.
    Nah, I think both skills work fine. There should be always small risk for these abilites to not work when casted.
    No, actually it would take all fun from using it.
    They could add extra effect at max rank, like small ward/dmg reduction/mit increase for defensive, and some CB to offensive.

    Actually, good idea.

    Seriously?? We have second best AoE among all fighters - Dragonfire, ofc with right tree in Prestige. If you use it properly, it will be doing 40% of your total damage.
    Plus you have lots of AE autoattack - pulling big groups these days is easy job for monks.
    Not really. Black Widow Stance was as useless as Flow Like a Wind is. Both stances itself, are not game changers for Monks these days. That's why they should all be diched. Instead, Reckless should be fixed.
    And your point is? They should delete that skill, or... Because that power drain is almost not noticable, and 46.5% attack speed is really nice buff.

    Dragonfire is a huge part of Monk life. Flurry and MA - that's what adorns and items are for. We cannot have everything, as then we woudlnt be called Monks but Gods.

    My ideas:
    • Brawler weapons used to have Black chance on it - as equivalent to shields. We had items with ~30% block chance. Weapons from this expansion have like 18% block chance...
    • Same goes to armor, where we used to have weapon/deflection/defense skills on it, and they are mostly gone now.
    • We used to have range throwing weapons with 5% flurry, now none of them has flurry.
    • In DoV we had jewelery with set bonuses. If we compare them to new CoE jewelery, stats are better on new ones. But if you sum it up, we loose huge amounts of ability mod, block chance, flurry etc.
    • Why we can't use green adorns on PoW rings?
    All that means, that if we go flat to new CoE items we will have worse defensive stats, which means we'll be worse tanking option. Why???

    Left tree in Prestige also leaves a lot to be desired. Teleport for a fellow??? Really, so overkill. I tried to use it when person got agro (dpsed to much or memwipe) and mostly two things happens:
    1. Teleported person instantly runs away, meets mob in half way and dies. And you cannot even use Hidden Openings as it has 5m range >.<
    2. Someone else get agro on mob, as he tries to run thru raid to ported person.
    So, how to fix it?
    1. Winds of Salvation - Add agro switch monk<->ported person, or at least some hate positioning (up for monk, down for target).
    2. Winds of Serenity Instead of heal, make it as ward, also for monk and target. It will only last as long as Winds of Salvation anyway...
    3. Winds of Salvation - Prevent AoE and damage reduction should be for monk and target.
    4. Sturdy Provoker - if you have Mountain Stance up, and you have it's timer reset and you cast it, instead of refreshin running buff game dispells Mountain Stance.
    5. Also adjust reuse timer for Winds of Salvation - it should have same reuse as Superior Guard.
    One more thing. Bring back Tsunami as Instant cast :)
  11. Estred Well-Known Member

    They probably took some Block away from monks because "blocking" was more a Shield-based skill where Deflection was the unique brawler skill. As many of your points are accurate I will keep this short. The trick behind CoE and PoW is that really... only CoE-HM is an actual Upgrade over PoW so the Raid-Progession is

    CoE-EM -> PoW -> Avatar/CoE-HM

    That is not the topic of this thread though. I don't know if an aggro swap (monk up and target down) is the best way to fix Salvation as it is more just duplicating part of a Guardian skill; recapture. This skill should be unique to monks not duplicate an effect of another tank class.

    Though just adding Hate Positions to Winds of Salvation certainly could fix the issue. I don't play a monk though I looked up Hidden Openings before saying this: It should have a 10m range. Mobs with huge hit-boxes are buggy when it comes to taunt-range sometimes and 5m is just too short.
  12. Silzin Active Member

    Hidden Opening and Snaring Assault... Spelling?... both need at least a 10m range.
  13. AustinB Member

  14. Estred Well-Known Member

    Sneering Assault: You are speaking of the Fighter Shadows Line correct?
    - Short Range
    - 3 Hate Positions
    - Does low/moderate damage single hit

    Edit: Austin red text is hardish to read on that background by default Forum UI. Red also is an aggressive color and may make someone respond with agitation before a thought out response. Just my thought as an Artist who actually payed attention in Color Theory :D

    Though about the "Can't use CA skill" for Monks. If you remove that you also should remove it from Rock-Skin (Bruiser Ability), Block (Guardian Skill) and Dragoon's Reflexes (Warrior Skill). As stands though the slight interruption of CA's isn't horrid to deal with, you can still Taunt while those skills are up only Damaging CA's break the effect.
  15. Stuk Puk New Member

    Agree on that. Plus you cannot Reply to that anymore :/ That's why on every forum you have quote option, but let's not troll this thread :)
  16. Estred Well-Known Member

    Wasn't trying to Stuk ;) just some friendly advice.

    Though I had a suggestion about Paladin's if it has not yet been covered. Holy Ground compared to Grave Sacrament... SK's are winning hate hand's down. Holy-Ground used to proc-positional's on hit or a few positions on cast. I would love to see Holy Ground gain either a large hate-per-proc (have AA to do so like the Warriors Experienced Insight) or more positional's to bring it up with Grave Sacrament/Mist (whatever their 2nd sac is called)
  17. Duele Active Member

    Why should Holy Ground be balanced against a Prestige ability? Holy Ground is still useful and used a lot. Not really the focus on this thread is it?
  18. AustinB Member

    One thing that hasn't really been addressed is the quality of fighter gear, specifically ear and finger items. Basically, the defensive stats on these pieces don't really make up for the offensive stats lost when compared to using the "scout" version of these items.

    Ears
    \aITEM 1848034520 187598587 0 0 0 0 1913573191 2 1913573191:[Dominant Earring of Frenzied Blows]\/a
    \aITEM 12518592 -2079748173 0 0 0 0 1913573191 2 1913573191:[Dominant Aggressor's Earstud of Frenzy]\/a

    Consider these two earrings. I am using them as an example because I am wearing them, and because their set bonus puts them at least on par with current content earrings.

    If we analyze the difference in stats between these two earrings we see scout version has a benefit of:

    - 4.5% Block Chance
    + 33.6% Multi Attack
    + 3% Flurry
    + 145 Ability Mod

    I would hardly call this a fair trade stat wise. As it stands, the only reason I actually use the fighter earring from this set is that it completes the set bonus. The fighter earrings should have stats that actually make them desirable to use for tanks over the scout version, and a measly amount of Block Chance just isn't going to do that. Perhaps consider adding a small amount of reuse speed and flurry to the fighter ear slots (perhaps 2% Flurry and 5% Ability Reuse Speed for raid quality fighter ears). You would still have to give up some Flurry, Multi Attack, and Ability Mod, but it would be a much more even trade for the benefit of additional Block Chance.


    Fingers
    \aITEM 390275439 -1022007558:Signet of the Mortal Scout\/a
    \aITEM -613829960 -360852175:Signet of the Mortal Fighter\/a

    Fighter Rings are also generally inferior to their scout counterparts. The trade isn't quite as bad as is with earrings because the Attack Speed will partially convert to Flurry and (for Monks) the Attack Speed converts to extra Crit Bonus, but there is still a huge net loss in DPS stats for a such a small boost in Mitigation Increase.

    - 67% Attack Speed
    - 23 Ability Mod
    - 4% Mitigation Increase
    + 19.5% DPS
    + 26.7% Multi Attack
    + 4% Flurry

    Adding 1.5% Flurry and maybe 3% Ability Reuse Speed would put the Fighter Rings more on par with the Scout versions in my opinion.


    Wrists, Belts, Necks, and Charms
    The trade-off in stats for these items is fine in my opinion. You generally lose a small amount of offensive stats for a small amount of defensive stats.
  19. Duele Active Member

    Crusaders: Fix Pledge of Armament to be something useful since it hasn't been worth using since before it was made raid wide and it was actually an ability that was very nice to have built into the MT group....probably DoF was when that was.

    2h weapons are still extremely lack luster and since Crusaders can't DW it is really the only choice they have. Could be some ways to make them useful by tweaking some AAs to buff up using them.

    Shadowknight: The Epic buff is junk. The proc is a joke because healers are almost always keeping a SK topped off in a raid so it produces very little to no hate gain. The clicky is broken. It does not do what it says, it only jumps the SK 5 hate positions instead of force targetting the mob. Change it to a single 24 hate position jump which would actually help with an area SKs are lacking in being able to climb hate positions fast. Also change the stoneskin to be any damage.

    Heroic endlines need to be looked at because they are extremely weak compared to other Fighter classes and once the line is opened up more to choose another endline it is going to be completely obvious. Soulclaim buff is tiny now except when you are power leveling and needs to trigger some other way. Manawall drains too much power.

    Prestige lines need to be redone to make it actually make it worth going either endline as a choice. Right now it is crazy to choose not to do double conversion.

    Since this is not a balance thread I won't go into the obvious advantage a certain Fighter group has over every other Fighter in this game specifically when it comes to raiding.
    Troubledoer likes this.
  20. Duele Active Member

    Oh and to piggy back on the items post Fighter Green Adornments are just plain junk.
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