Focused Feedback – Zones

Discussion in 'Zones and Populations' started by Silzin, Dec 9, 2014.

  1. Silzin Active Member

    I know there was not a Focused Feedback for the zone made and I may not be the best qualified to talk about all of the zones, but I will start the conversation going on them.

    Heroic Zones

    Zavith’loa: The Lost Caverns – zone as an over all 1st zone of the xpac is desint, but having an expectation of 120k resists on it is to much, I think redusing that to 100k would help people that just got the Crafted resist gear or finished Sig-line will be able to work this zone. All of the named seem fine as long as you have the ACT trigger for the last named….
    Zavith’loa: The Hidden Caldera – again the resists needed at zones is a bit much for 1 of the first 2 zones after the solo quests…. That aside. 1st named is workable, 2nd named has a dps check higher then what a group of people that just finished the Sig line/solo quest with crafted resist gear…. Redusing the duration of the Stun a bit would probably help this a lot, also redusing the HP of the adds by about 15-20%... whatever. Other named seem to be fine, just following the script.
    Brokenskull Bay: Bilgewater Falls - As being part of the beginning grouping of zones: 1st reduce/remove the ticking damage that bypasses wards and Reactive (Or make it not bypass Wards and Reactive). Next the 3rd named if you can remove 1 of the adds or make then spon where the named will repop at will help the Pug abilitiy. These 2 changes I think and this zone will be good for starting groups.
    Brokenskull Bay: Hoist the Yellow Jack – again with the ticking/pulsing damage that bypasses wards and reactives. This makes it so no PUG can bring a solo healer even if they can deal with everything else in the way of heals/cures. (its expectable for the Hard zone, but not a zone in this location in progression) 4th named? I think its 2nd to last, it needs some more … ability to tell the group what is going on with the script and how to deal with the “Walking the Plank”. (Last Named, I have not seen)
    Castle Highhold – the 1st named is probably harder then the last for healing/damage, but since this zone is the 1st of the “Harder zones” having the significant step up in difficulty is expectable. (these zone do not need to be easily PUG able) But Ossuary R M seems easer.
    Ssraeshza Temple – first 2 named are workable and nice loot, no comment after that.
    Castle Highhold: Thresinet’s Den – No Comment, I have not run the zone.
    Ossuary: Resonance of Malice – since this zone drops BP’s and Legs, normally dropping in the hardest of zone in expansion, this zone is easer ATM then Hoist the Yellow Jack. So I would say the 2 Brokenskull Bay zones need a lot of help.
    Ssraeshza Temple: Inner Sanctum - No Comment, I have not run the zone.
    Ossuary: Sanguine Fountains - No Comment, I have not run the zone.

    Event Heroic
    Zavith’loa: The Hunt – this is fine, but I am thinking that the quest should reward something other than just Tokens.
    Brokenskull Bay: Bosun’s Private Stock - No Comment, I have not run the zone.
    Ssraeshza Temple: Taskmaster’s Echo - No Comment, I have not run the zone.
    Castle Highhold: Insider Treachery - No Comment, I have not run the zone.
    Ossuary: Choir of T’Vyl - No Comment, I have not run the zone.
  2. Malleria Well-Known Member

    First named in Castle Highhold needs to ramp up his damage slower than he does. Even after the nerf last patch he becomes too powerful too quickly. Haven't had too much of an issue with him personally, but I imagine a lower dps group would run out of temps before he died. (Probably the case with the second named in Thresinet's Den too, Wrekk Shralock. Again, haven't had any issue with him personally, but a lower dps group might).

    Last named in Castle Highhold needs to set people on fire more evenly spaced. It's pretty silly fighting him for 60sec and then suddenly 4 people all need to click a tapestry all at once. It creates confusion as multiple people run for the same tapestry. Spread it out more so it's like one every 15sec, instead of 4 at the 60sec mark.

    SSRA Temple - Behemoth is still ridiculously unbalanced. Bring a perfect group set up, or one of the tanks that can keep up a decent chain of the correct type of temps or don't bother trying. Seriously, who thought it was a good idea to combine one-shots with 100% strikethrough?

    Inner Sanctum - pretty much need the perfect group/tank set up here too with everything hitting as hard as it does. Burning temps on trash mobs = funfun! (not).

    As a general comment, fast magical based attacks shouldn't do a ton of damage, because not all tanks are set up to deal with them. If 90% of your temps revolve around blocking physical damage, that guy spamming an elemental auto attack really sucks. Either keep the main source of damage as physical, or adjust fighters temps to block everything.
  3. Uncle Active Member

    Brokenskull Bay: Hoist the Yellow Jack – The last named imho is not pugable or worth the effort for Mission reward or drop recopmmend having the canons already set and just clicking them to fire expecall y with the amount of hp the named has
    Jrel likes this.
  4. Spira Member

    All Event Heroic Zones
    They take way too long.
    I thought they were designed to be doable in 10-15 mins..
    The last named in Temple takes 20ish mins to kill.. haha, Im sure a very well geared group can do better.. but I thought the whole point of event heroic, was that they would be fast to run.
    Total time for the Temple event is currently close up to a full hour.

    Brokenskull Bay: Bilgewater Falls
    Bipsie? Her Call to me aoe thingy is rather harsh for being one of the "easier zones". Give more time or reduce damage.

    Brokenskull Bay: Hoist the Yellow Jack
    Not worth the hassle due to the last named.

    Ossuary: Resonance of Malice
    Please tone down the HP on the main "usher". Its a pointless burn when his adds are dead.
    Also reduce the amount if times Valdimus ressurects his adds.
    Other than that the zone is ok.

    Ssraeshza Temple
    I like this zone. Though I guess for the "wrong type of tank/sloppy group setup" the 3rd (Behemoth) hits rather hard.

    Ssraeshza Temple: Inner Sanctum
    Trash hits too hard. Its just.. too hard.
  5. Gninja Developer

    Brokenskull Bay: Bilgewater Falls - As being part of the beginning grouping of zones: 1st reduce/remove the ticking damage that bypasses wards and Reactive (Or make it not bypass Wards and Reactive). Next the 3rd named if you can remove 1 of the adds or make then spon where the named will repop at will help the Pug abilitiy. These 2 changes I think and this zone will be good for starting groups.
    Brokenskull Bay: Hoist the Yellow Jack – again with the ticking/pulsing damage that bypasses wards and reactives. This makes it so no PUG can bring a solo healer even if they can deal with everything else in the way of heals/cures. (its expectable for the Hard zone, but not a zone in this location in progression) 4th named? I think its 2nd to last, it needs some more … ability to tell the group what is going on with the script and how to deal with the “Walking the Plank”. (Last Named, I have not seen)

    Which spells are you referring to. If they hit through wards or don't trigger reactives that is a bug
  6. Arieste Well-Known Member

    Woah, without the proper quote, i thought that Gninja was complaining about zones. Which was like... surreal :)
  7. Gninja Developer


    Sowwy :)
  8. Silzin Active Member

    I will check over my logs tonight and get back to you.
  9. Silzin Active Member

    After checking back over my ACT Logs it dose look like the AoE's i was seeing make the Raid healers i was taking throw Brokenskull Bay and they where putting out around 1 mill HPS do to it, was being effected by wards. that may have just been not enough resists at 120k+ or we where missing something about the scrapped, both are possible.
  10. TrulyVexed Active Member

    RE: Hoist the Yellow Jack - I thought it was fairly obvious what was required when made to walk the plank. Anyone that has to walk the plank only needs to look at their own detriments and everyone should be used to doing that after ToV. That said, you can still get "stuck" on the end of the plank after all the cures.. requires backing up a tiny bit and jumping which if you get wrong means you end up in the water and is incredibly frustrating (as of a week or two ago anyway)
    Ajjantis likes this.
  11. Arieste Well-Known Member

    First of all, thank you for recognizing that there is an issue with the heroic zone progression. Given Kander's post, I'd like to mention a few things.

    1.Tier 1 - Brokenskull Bay: Bilgewater Falls - for the easiest zone in the game, this is definitely not. Caldera is by far easiest, hunt second, caverns third, this 4th. The hard thing about this zone is basically Bipsie. She's a fantastic encounter! Very fun and uniquely designed. BUT... she's no place in the game's easiest zone. I think the world will be a sad and overnerfed place if she's made easy though. As i said - it's a great encounter, it just doesn't belong in the easiest zone.
    2.Tier 1 - Brokenskull Bay: Hoist the Yellow Jack - this zone was super easy the only time i ran it, except for... last named. Why would the 2nd easiest heroic in the game have an X2 last boss in the first place? Once again, this is a really fun and unique encounter - love dem cannons! It would suck for this to be nerfed into oblivion and/or made so you can totally ignore this fun and unique script. But it has absolutely no place being 2nd easiest zone.
    3.Tier 1 - Zavith'loa: The Lost Caverns - the 3 dino zones are being easily run and should be the easiest zones in game - they already are!!!
    4.Tier 1 - Zavith'loa: The Hidden Caldera - see above.
    5.Tier 1 - Zavith'loa: The Hunt - see above.
    6.Tier 2 - Brokenskull Bay: Bosun’s Private Stock- this has some challenge to it and is made easier by having a bunch of dps. That being said, tehre is nothing particularly "interesting" about this design. so if you're going to nerf one of the zone, i'd much rather you nerf this and make Hoist into the hardest Tranquil-based zone - it already has a challenging X2 boss. That way we at least don't lose that unique mechanic and it feels like a real accomplishment to kill the captain.. while there is little satisfaction (rp-wise) in killing "random spiderbear #6534541"
    7.Tier 2 - Ossuary: Resonance of Malice - MY MAIN ISSUE: This zone currently drops both best heroic Pants and BPs - which are 2/3 key armor pieces. Doing any zone harder than this feels like a complete letdown because it drops less desirable pieces. Why put in the time and effort into doing the MUCH more complex and harder Castle Zones when they give forearms/gloves? The other drops in those zones aren't so great either. Given where this zone is in progression... it should be dropping BLUE pants/bps, not green. Greens should come from T3.
    8.Tier 2 – Castle Highhold - the adjustments in patch notes look good! Both this zone and Thresinet's don't really need to be made EASIER, they just need to be made FASTER. They're good zones, just take too long for what they give.
    9.Tier 2 – Castle Highhold: Thresinet’s Den - see above.
    10.Tier 2 – Castle Highhold: Insider Treachery - not done.
    11.Tier 2 – Ssraeshza Temple - again, just needs to be made shorter (esp last encounter)
    12.Tier 2 – Ssraeshza Temple: Taskmaster's Echo - not done.
    13.Tier 3 – Ossuary: Sanguine Fountains - not done.
    14.Tier 3 - Ossuary: Choir of T'Vyl- not done.
    15.Tier 3 - Ssraeshza Temple: Inner Sanctum- not done.

    My main issue with the progression is that the armor drop progression seems to make no sense. I mean, you have 15 zones. There are 14 armor pieces between the blue and the green sets designated for heroic. Would it not make sense for the 7 easiest zones to have the blue armor crates and then the next 7 to have green? (And progressing from worst slot - forearms - to best - bp) And then last zone to have something special?
    Llwellyn likes this.
  12. ColorsFade Active Member

    It would...
    Llwellyn likes this.
  13. Mathafern Well-Known Member

    There are two things in the "Tier 1" zones I think don't belong there:
    - ticking damage which ignores reactives and wards. This heavily favors 1 type of healer and is rough for the other two.
    - scripts which may be interesting, but ignore the effect that latency has on a group in getting the timing right. I'm not saying these challenges don't have their place, but "Tier 1" zones are not that place.
    Jrel likes this.
  14. silamdarr Member

    This goes for overall zone and encounter design:

    Any encounter that punishes you for too much dps is not fun, it is frustrating, and makes me want to turn on auto attack and take a nap. I'm not sure why any encounter with negative consequences for too much dps have made it into game past the time Nexona was put in makes me sad.
    Stealthmode, Kiry and Karnoz like this.
  15. GIndotto Well-Known Member

    I don't understand the difficulty level on Brokenskull, when it drops crap gear out of the mission crate. I think of the zones last year that dropped Arcane gear - High Keeps, Nexus, Hive - a month into the expansion those zones were not thought of much. Not to say ToV is a great way to copy difficulty of heroics, but Brokenskull to me seems more of a Phantom Sea difficulty and is no way in line with Zavith Loa progression at all.

    Also, doing 700k HPS on the final fight in Bilgewater, vs about 300k HPS for Yellowjack, seems *** backward. Also because on any given Resonance of Malice choir fight (which should be a harder zone yes?) I only do 500k.

    I'm with Arieste in that I don't want to see these fights nerfed, but it's just so "Pick the damage, any damage" style of difficulty. Like you all lined the zones up on a dartboard and threw "Heals Per Second" darts at the board, regardless of their spot in the tier of difficulty.

    Another solution to remedy this is to remove this silly division between zones on "Blue Malice" and "Green Malice" gear. It's not even that Brokenskull -shouldn't- be hard (cause I like where it's tuned) it's that you do this challenging *** zone and you get......some blue gloves. I know there's rare drops in there, and we shouldn't complain, but the difficulty is off for the crate rewards.

    And this isn't a complaint about the loot system, I like it, I just think assigning a zone the blue crate simply because in the early planning stages it was "designed to be easy", isn't working. If you Devs create a kickass zone and it ends up being more of a challenge than you thought, that needs to be taken into account for loot!
    Stealthmode and Jrel like this.
  16. Karnoz Active Member

    Regarding raid zones: Any chance you could either add a cast bar to the Ancient Devastation curse or make it accurately timeable?

    It isn't too hard to deal with for classes with fixed-duration damage reduction or major reactive temps, but it is an incredible pain in the *** for those of us who have to rely on stoneskin temps with low damage thresholds (0%/5%/10% as far as guardians go, meaning pretty much everything eats a charge these days).
  17. Jrel Well-Known Member

    This is what appears to be working for pugs I've been in on Butcherblock:

    Tier 1 Heroics = 100K base resists recommended (Reality - doesn't matter, and shouldn't matter: let players get into these zones right away rather than painstakingly having to figure a way to get their resists up). It takes doing the first 3 Zavith-Loa zones to get resist jewelry anyway.
    Tier 2 Heroics = 120K resists recommended (reality: 130K)
    Tier 3 Heroics = 120K + resists recommended (no idea)

    These baselines should include mitigation numbers. Players are still instant-dirtnapping with a mix of previous overland tier and AOM overland gear with 130K+ resists.

    This is the current "real current" progression based on random pug runs I've joined on Butcherblock:
    All equal: 4.Tier 1 - Zavith'loa: The Hidden Caldera / 3.Tier 1 - Zavith'loa: The Lost Caverns / 5.Tier 1 - Zavith'loa: The Hunt
    7.Tier 2 - Ossuary: Resonance of Malice
    1.Tier 1 - Brokenskull Bay: Bilgewater Falls
    8.Tier 2 – Castle Highhold
    2.Tier 1 - Brokenskull Bay: Hoist the Yellow Jack
    Rest of the tiers are unknown because (PUGs / not enough people on server) run them.

    Ossuary Malice seems to be run more often than either the Brokenskull Bays because
    1: Bilgewater Falls (Bipsie is doing incredible damage with Long Distance Relations at point blank range; 2.7 to 3.4 mill; usually only ONE aoe blocker in group; and can't be interrupted while casting), Duncan fight (some players still just can't avoid things and it ends up being a pure luck fight). Barnacle Bill's nox det is still a kicker with under 130K resists and solo-heals.
    2: Hoist the Yellow Jack: The last fight is too long and the rewards are sad for the time spent getting to the last name and time spent through the fight. First name can be a pain/undoable for low dps (MOST PUG) groups.
    3: The BP reward from the last name in Ossuary Resonance is great I'll admit. Please leave it as a green! It hasn't been dropping the correct green for some people (nor for me, it has always been a max health chain BP because of weighted loot table), but at least it is a step towards getting green shards. I have seen ZERO Pants dropping on every run from the name's loot chest so I have no idea what other players are talking about.

    The last fight in Ossuary Malice: The named has too much health, and the fight becomes way too long for a single high dps group.
    Silzin likes this.
  18. Gninja Developer

    Keep in mind that the zones on Kander's list are listed in difficulty but color not by number. Just because Brokenskull Bay is listed at number 1 and 2 doesnt mean they are easier than Zavith'Loa. Just means they are considered Tier1.
  19. silamdarr Member

    To add on to the point that I made earlier... With more gear comes more dps, thus making those types more difficult rather than easier, which is counter-intuitive. I shouldn't have to start gimping my gear or go AFK during a fight so the raid/group doesn't blow themselves up.
  20. Gninja Developer

    Stopping DPS during a fight is nothing new and is only a problem when those in the group refuse to stop. Its part of executing a strategy. No one is forcing you to do less dps it is forcing you to control your dps.

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