Discussion in 'Mages' started by Penta, Sep 5, 2015.
Note to self don't just read the staFFpost tracker and not the whole thread.
Honestly warlocks/wizard/conj should get a boost in damage
Necro/ranger/assassin/brigand are so strong right now because of max hp debuffs (see cruor if you don't understand how good they are) Warlocks are honestly kind of bad right now when you compare them to how much more you could parse stacking classes that max hp debuffs stack
Also in fatality i'm pretty sure my fury could outparse everyone but like three people in aoe /shrug.
Also hi mogrim miss you
You all must not know that assassin max HP buffs do not stack anymore right? Because they dont. period. and anyone saying assassins are too stong right now and warlocks potential isnt higher.. are pretty much on drugs. When you can get a warlock up past 5k CB on an FC rotation and the most I see out my sin is 2.5k( or any other class for that matter, but I used sin because people seem to think they're the best DPS in the game without exploiting items that should not stack)... Just seems about silly to me.. But w.e..there will be supporters of locks and non supporters... I mean I said long ago in beta thread... 50% Would be acceptable FC #... 75% is too much. But i've said this since FC was conceived..Knowing how inflated parses and stats would become. I think mostly why people think sins/rangers are too good are because of their **** passive dps.. hemo/auto/shadow... Now a ho-hum assassin will beat a ho-hum warlock due to this passiveness... But trust me when I tell you.. while the floor may be higher on Sin the ceiling to the dps definitely belongs to the warlock, with a skilled player... and if I had the same gear on my lock as I did my sin, I could 1000% do more on the lock. And don't listen to Adoninilol..1. he hasnt touched the game nor raided in months... 2. conj/warlock are the last things that need boosts... when classes like necro,wizard,beastlord,swash's suffer.. but to be blatantly honest.. Warlock is far ahead of any other class... And its NOT just mogrim. Jokirr easilly doubles scouts just as readily as mogrim in raid.cheershomex
Was just reading back over this thread, and this post (and others along the same lines) caught my eye, so I guess I'll clarify...
Edit: This list ended up being rather messy, so I just split it off into sections.
10s (base) duration
Can be activated while executing the first ability of the chain
150s reuse (and a 9% chance to reset off Apoc @ 22.5s recast - ethereal wand will yield additional Apoc reset opportunities)
10s (base) duration
Has a cast time investment of 1.25s, plus running time then lost while the first ability of the chain is cast.
75s reuse (no reset potential)
Almost 75% modifier to existing independent multiplier (since it doesn't modify the base crit multiplier value, just the CB)
Guess the 100 crit chance component is probably worth a mention
Modifies all damage that is able to critical
Which is pretty much everything (barring non-modifiable procs, I guess)
45.5% modifier (this includes the prestige option that every wizard should take)
Modifies all *eligible* damage, which is everything except...
Excluded damage sources: Doublecasts, dot components, all procs, unda, flurry, ma (and manaburn)
While the smart wizard will control which abilities they use to yield the largest amount of eligible damage, there are certain restrictions/losses that you just can't avoid (in order of priority: doublecasts, procs, unda, flurry, ma). The actual value that is lost through those restrictions will vary from wizard to wizard based on how they have their toon set up (e.g. ability mod value, melee investment, etc), but the losses to the effect of that 45.5% multiplier are substantial either way.
I did actually work it out for my toon once and the value reduced itself to ~25%, but this was a while ago and I haven't run the numbers recently.
Edit: Also, remember that this is before the more favorable nature of Focused Casting's 'cast' mechanics (allowing you to physically squeeze more stuff into the window).
Other details that someone else can mess around with if they have the time or inclination:
- The value of what abilities can be squeezed into each respective window (based on class).
- Balance outside of chains.
- Shorter duration fights (sub 1.5 mins), where recast conditions are removed as a factor (which is most named fights now)
Anywho, don't mind me - this thread is an amusing read...
Oh, and in case anyone misinterprets that last post, because I know someone will try to, my position on the subject is:
- Fiery Blast should not be improved. Large (relative) gain short-term temps are a dangerous thing to incorporate because it has the potential to significantly skew output. Balance is much better achieved and maintained across a spectrum of encounter types and duration, if their effective values are more limited in scope but with a higher usage frequency (but still tangible enough to make proper usage and execution of such tools have an impact).
- (As I mentioned earlier) If one class is out of line, you fix whatever is the cause of that imbalance. That people try to argue otherwise is silly. It keeps dps inflation across the board down, and it is a much easier fix than trying to adjust every other class. Within the scope of this thread and this discussion that would probably be a FC reduction, or if you want to smooth out the spikes even further then reduce the amount again and cut the corresponding cooldown.
- I try not to get too caught up in the detail and just enjoy the game, because the devs will never get balance right. It's been a constant juggling act for years and it will probably be so for years to come. Swings and roundabouts.
I'll poke my head back in since we are talking sense <3
^ Exactly. What Util do we have these days? that's the main reason i rolled conj in the first place. on DT Sacrifice is legit. I can heal my group up from an AOE(to pretty much full) when needed. Shards are a must need ect.(just an example obvs)
I do love the don't yell nerfs at me tactic but try to get your class improved. Because we did that as a summoner core. Why do you think our late great leader Aniathor quit. We tried. They fixed some. Messed up alot. #Rip.
Agreed. Necros would of been a contender if they would of kept Tox the way it was(Cuz of Accelerated Decay) imho at least. And we would of been given the AOE damage increase we desperately need(Unlinked encounters). I don't want to give up hope and i sure as **** don't want my DPS to be based on my auto, but it's looking grim hence the frustration.
Funny, because looking back during Beta tov threads... I asked for a nerf of atleast 25-30%. Care for a link? And this was me transitioning back to an assassin and I beta raided as a lock. So my understanding of the class and its need for a small nerf has been since the beginning of this year, before I even came off the lock.. Even back in the very beginning of this year I was able to spike 3-4K Crit bonus on the lock and knew it was a touch op... So I resent that statement. Whats next, how I never topped one parse in revelations or attrition as a lock? smh. Also the hemotoxin crap is still not resolved.. there are still items that 100% shouldn't stack.. but do, and cause 300% increase in hemotoxin output...Ive messaged dev's... told fatality members whom I know to talk to the dev frequently,,,So I guess its just "Intended" and im going to have to employ a cant beat em join em attitude, just to compete and find any enjoyment from this passive broken class they've shamed the assassin into (in which very non talented assassins start calling themselfs amazing at the class...lol). It really stinks. And I was only trying to help make sure if this nerf goes down that that dont nerf lock into the same blackhole where beastlords now reside. But I can see there is alot of bitterness and finger pointing going on here... so w.e enjoy your thread, I will read and laugh and not provide any input, As its just a crap shoot at this point.
And herein lies our disagreement.
Warlocks are not out of line, unless you focus on skewed sample-size parses, especially in ideal conditions. But when you remove those skewed sample-size parses, Conjs, Brigans, Assassins, and Rangers can all compete with us.
Necros are Wizards are a little further behind, but lets look at that.
Necros have Rot Flesh and a Max Health Debuff that both provide a bit of utility which erases some of that gap.
The gap with Wizards would likely be erased simply by adjusting the reuse on FB from 75 seconds to 60 seconds.
We're all leaving Swashies and Beastlords out of the conversation still, because reasons.
This sort of effect is expected to be easy to obtain come the expac. So adjusting it to be slightly more Summoner friendly would almost definitely affect balance. But if you and Belton don't want it, I'll butt out.
Side note: I've got all 3 ethereals. Are you really trying to compare my parses to all the other classes? Are you suggesting to nerf a class because of what one person can do with gear of the quality that most of his contemporaries can't even reproduce?
Imo balance should lie in completely different sphere .... Look unless you want to cookie-cutter DPS mage and DPS melee class things should be different around different classes.....
Imo wizards should shine in burst/single target fights
warlock in burst AoE
Necros should be king of sustained single target fights
Coj - sustained AOE
Coercer should serve as major debuffer for melee and boost for melee
Illy - major boost for mages and major debuffer for mages
And of course should be different type of raiding encounters
Perhaps some element should be introduced with linked and non linked AoE fights
Problem and calls for nerfs comes once 1 single class start outshine rest in ALL areas.. I playing warlock but I do agree that warlock should not be top parse on single target or during endurance fights .... while wizard should not be competing with warlock on AoE fights ... Same goes for endurance fights - necros and conj should be on top but they should lag behind on burst fights
I think they should just nerf everyone and buff me, not the class itself.
And heres a mash up of random pictures to inspire you to, "Do It"
I am sure people have been angry about this since the FC change first hit live, people did not just becoming randomly angry as of recent. People are just finally making a post about it.
Homex, why does it matter if you did or did not top a parse in rev or attrition? More importantly, why even bring that up? You still defended the ability at the time. Also devs have a priority list on what gets fixed or not. I am sure you are talking about finisher items stacking? I am sure devs have better thing to fix than an item that will be outdated as soon as its upgraded, which will probably drop off the final mob in the easiest zone again. At that point it will not stack with previous finisher items.
Lets be honest here..warlocks such a mogrim will only try and defend their class. The simple truth is this.. When you have 1 class that excels in all areas of the playing field and then exceeding in power in 90%(or more) of the contents boss fights when that said class was made to be solely a AoE class then ya, it needs to fixed, its that simple. Nerfing FC to 50% or even 35% of base CB would be ideal.
I knew I'd like this thread.
No wizard, eh mog's? I know a guy who knows a guy....
I dont know if my 2 cents are even relevant since I havent even logged in since last october, much less been a serious raider since ohhhhhh 2013 or so, but yea, FC was redonkulous even then. ...
But I always like the challenge. EZ modes' for suckas. (Present company excluded, of course).....
Tell Dark to give me all the sweetest candy loot, one month (maybe 2? I'm getting old..) and I'll make you mad just like the old days, baby. Or not. Powerslides down sand dunes as Big Boss in a cardboard box takes up alot of my time, atm.
I turned my trixy cane into a solid pipe. You got to see it.
Swing that pendulum back to the pointy hats , devs. <3 +420% pot seems like a good buff for us. Derey, back me up, I'll pour you some tea.
Which loops exactly back to the point I made in the part you quoted from me.
You can have the longer term potential of FC / the class remain (largely or completely) unaffected while you address that shorter-duration imbalance. And you do that by reducing the modifier value on FC with a corresponding reduction in cooldown. I won't name hard figures because I don't want to turn it into a 'too much' or 'too little' debate, but just for the sake of illustration (to make the premise clearer) you could head towards a ~25% modifier on ~1 minute cooldown.
I imagine you would be on-board with something like that as you have repeatedly stated that those shorter-duration fights don't matter, even though that's what most fights are now. And from reading this thread, it seems like it is exactly these scenarios that the majority are taking issue over.
+1 Well said.
I miss you Sac<3 You stoned ****. You Should def come back!
So what you are saying is don't worry about 90 percent of the fights when locks dominate because those fights don't matter at all due to being small skewed sample-size parses. Then you go on to say that adjusting the eth's to be slightly more summoner friendly would affect balance? So adjusting them from being currently blowing big *** chunks for summoners to only slightly blowing chunks for summoners would have game altering balance issues? Kind of like where Etox was nerfed to hell because that 1 spell would have game altering balance issues.
Adding those Eth effects to an already out of control FC is only exacerbating and compounding the issue. I cant wait until the expac to see what more they give sorcs.
Defending? I believe I have read in most posts "warlocks are fine, other are behind." In other words, other classes are in a similar boat and warlocks are ahead. I'd have to agree with Daray in the case of nerfing 1 class would be fairly easier than boosting multiple others.
I see multiple posts on which classes needs boosts/nerfs aside from locks and conjs can compete which is simply not true. There have been many parses posted by sorcerors or that I have been in raid to see myself that I will specifically never be able to compete with even if it is a post 1-minute fight and I am sure other top tier summoners agree.
If I remember correctly, someone said Aniathor was able to compete with warlocks earlier. If I remember correctly, he also quit because of the gaps and imbalancing left between dps classes.
Summoners should provide more utility such as stats to shard? 1. The only way shards will ever be decent again is if they make it increase power of the caster by a % instead of a flast number. That being said, chanters can flow power to a person/group, the power drained can be stoneskinned/avoided, or the class has abilities to give themselves power back. 2. People claim to want shards with stat increase for a time. Just sounds like another rouse to increase personal dps with already inflated stats and spread the curve even more.
I do have an amazing utility ability, if I choose to ever need it which does not happen often. I can give a 10% damage reduction to the entire raid against magical damage for 30s. Sadly, I think Barrier should just be given to the conj as a 90 ability, revamp left side for us because its bad, and keep its reset chance. It is one of the more powerful utility abilities in the game.
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