EQ2 Producer's Letter - December 2005

I think I'd more recommend a middle ground with keeping the basic 4 classes for levels 1-10 and then goign directly to sub-class. I just think for newcomers to the game having the basic 4 is a nicer introduction than having to choose a particular sub-class right from the start. Just my 2 cents.

This game has so many things going for it that differentiate it from WOW:

1. Many more quests
2. Much deeper multi-part quests
3. Deep Spell System (Multiple levels, different names, etc.)
4. In-depth Crafting
5. Small group friendly
6. End-game not dependent on 40-man raids to progress

There are game mechanics that are present in WOW that make sense to implement, by doing so in no way makes this game a WOW clone. The naysayers will never stop until Vanguard has been released and they have moved on to that game. For the rest of you, enjoy what you have, it is the best out there at the present time, and will continue as long as SOE is commited to improving the game for all levels. The more immersive the beginning is, the better able this game will be to attract new players.

I salute the Devs for taking the best aspects of ANY game and trying to incorporate into thiers.

Look, Kordran, what I am saying really is we are starting to lose our unique identity as a game, we are heading down a path that everyone is starting to go and WoW has been since they started. Someone else stated it should be a 1-up one each other to be competitive, not a follow suit to what you like from other games, you can never 1-up anyone that way and in the mean time, we lose our unique identity as a game. How do you think people that payed to play WoW and found they didn't like it and came here for something different are beginning to feel now that elements of WoW are starting to creep in and the new inovations we are getting are rehashes of old graphics with different colors and effects? I mean instead of being EVERQUEST II we are just going to be another MMORPG in the pack with nothing that makes us different. As far as the WoW world, its seemless, but its graphically less impressive then EQ II's world, its flaws are hidden with bloom effects and bad textures.

JoePa, i'm not saying we don't have any thing that makes us different, we have a lot, but they are slowly taking that stuff away, the first step is the picking of your main class at character creation time, and the people that have moved from WoW to us are going to see the similarities, changes to this game and either not come here or just stay over there. I want Everquest II to do well and keep going, this is MY GAME, as well as EVERYONE ELSE's GAME, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't my CHOICE OF GAME and we all want the same, for it to survive in tact and evolve in a FRESH NEW WAY and do very well, but not start to adopt elements from other games and reuse old elements from this game repackaged in new colors. I do give props for the world, its beautiful, its elegant and realistic, the quests we have now are fun and challenging, the recent upper level armors are very cool looking and I greatly appreaciate how much more difficult it is to create armor for our game, because WoW uses cheap looking painted on armor for cloth, leather and chainmail, for what we have in the game graphically is amazing when you put it side by side with something like WoW or Lineage or Guild Wars, but with so many we don't need to blend in more we need to stand out more in other areas, IE: the Class System.

If they do decide to change it, don't rush it out there, if its not flawless don't put it out to the general public, I mean the Star Wars Galaxies nightmare we don't need here, I mean they said it was a long time in coming but they rushed it out for some reason and its hurt that game emensely, broken quest, broken classes, and broken worlds. Rushing to do it isn't the way to go either, take some time and work out all the bugs and address concerns about the content. You can't fix whats broken if you constantly revamp it all. I mean if Vanguard comes out and does well I guess we'll see its elements added to our game too then? I don't play Vanguard and I don't intend to play it, I picked EQ II for a reason and thats why i'm still here.
Message Edited by ironman2000 on 12-17-2005 09:04 AM

I think that Betrayal NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED: at the very LEAST, bring the limit for betrayal to Level 20 to bring it in line with the changes coming to Subclass definitiion. The "Level 17 Rule" was never clearly stated anywhere in game Lore or Content and I personally have spoken with many people who, not having any clue there was a Level cut-off for betrayal now have characters "stucK" in one city or the other unable to do anything to move them. In some extreme situations, characters are "broken" by this very game mechanic to the point of people quitting the game altogether!!!
I think that some options SOE should look at for altering Betrayal should be the following:
a. In short, define "starting a quest" as the appearance of that quest in one's quest Journal? That is how most quests are defined in this game but, for some odd reason, Betrayal does NOT work this way?
b. Enable players to be able to turn off ALL Experience....not "just" combat experience. This would prevent the "accident" of a player accidentally crossing a level threshold from happening in the first place.
c. Once the Betrayal quest appears in someone's quest journal, have the game recognize it as "started" so that even if the player accidentally "dings" 18 afterwards, the game itself would prevent them from leveling at that point. This is how it works with Citizenship with regards to the Newbie Island? If one reaches 220% beyond Level 6, they can earn no more experience until AFTER they become a citizen. Same thing occurs with the Sub-Class from Level 19 to 20. IMHO, Betrayal should have a cut-off at Level 20 so it is in line with SubClass choice and, once started (by speaking with the NPC who starts the process) should prevent the individual from earning further experience beyond that point.
d. All Players of all levels should have the option of Betrayal at ANY level by simply scaling the difficulty level of the mobs in the Betrayal quest instance to player level. If mob difficulty can be scaled in other instanced zones throughout the game, they should be scaleable in the Betrayal instance as well.



Message Edited by aerith3366 on 12-17-2005 12:52 PM

LOL, SOE should hire this kind of developers to SWG before it died. Anyway.. What I was wondering about new class system is, will there be new voice overs since everything is changing?

The destruction of the archetype system is somethin' I've been sayin was necessary since day 1. You just don't get a feel for the 6 and then 2 classes you are to become until you are actually level 24 or so. This change is exciting, but what's sad is all my slots are full. We need at least 2 new character slots!

Hopefully with us choosing a class from day 1, the focus can be on every class's uniqueness, and the idea that "everyone does everything equally" will just be a memory

Ironman, are the only changes that SOE is allowed to implement, ones that DONT mirror another game? We will be hard pressed to receive any improvements as there is probably little in the genre that has not been explored one way or another, in any game.

WOW does not have the market on character class creation at player start, this mechanic is pretty much the industry standard, why do you think that is, because it works. SOE tried something different in EQ2, and has backed off because it is more prohibitive then beneficial. Yes it makes the game unique in this area, but is that a game defining feature? Will players flock here because of it? I think not.

Are more racial specific quests a good or bad thing? I think good, but certainly not an original idea, you can look to EQ and WOW for their versions of this implementation.

The elements in the post above are the things that keep me here, the changes they mention will not shatter my world one way or another, nor most that are already here. They could go a long way to enriching the experiance of newer players, more of which would be a good thing. You need to hook them as soon as possible, adding some similarities might enable that. There are enough differences out there to show how unique this game is compared to the rest out there.
Message Edited by JoePa on 12-17-2005 10:38 AM

I agree. Sony stop F'ing around with these elements of the game. I swear if you ruin this game like you did SWG .... The progression from 1-20 gave me something to work torwards, I leveled 5 characters through this system, Necro , Coercer, Shadowknight, Defiler, Assasin, and I am a causal gamer. I know what I talking about rather than one of your [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] focus groups. Hear this... We like it the way it is now, go work on a expansion or something and leave the progession alone. So angry with you :smileymad:

Personally I like the change. The main reason I don't alt as much, is because I don't want to have to go through 20 levels just to pick my final class. With this change, I can try out a couple classes that I wanted to

Agree with you here, we have seen how focus groups know zero thing about gaming with what they did to SWG. They need to stop doing radical changes that will alienate playerbase.

People who get lag spikes are able to turn down their graphics settings. If you got a lag spike on a PvP server fighting someone, it would be the same as getting a lag spike on a PvE server fighting a mob. Same with internet connection. Like you stated above, some classes get dmg bonuses from rear end attacks. They should be able to make full use of these in a PvP fight. If your opponent is always locked on to you it would be difficult to pull these off. Also, in games like quake, you are shooting and aiming a gun. A game like EQ2 is much slower and this change would hardly make it a "twitch" game. Having more mobility in a PvP fight hardly makes this game a fragfest.

I don't fault you for your interest in the changes, but you do not understand the devil you are dancing with, that being SOE. They have proven that they do not care how their changes affect their player base, but are more interested in the bottom line. As a player community we really need to be on guard against any radical changes SOE proposes to any of their MMO's. This is our game as much so, if not more than it is theirs. We invested our time and money into the game for our characters, that we love. They invest their time and money so they can get more money. There isn't anything wrong with SOE making money but you have to understand that we are on different sides here, from where they stand, and eventually the two are going to come into conflict. Honestly they are not making this change so you can have more fun they are making it so that they can entice new players more easily by giving them immediate gratification into their class of choice versus earning it. For those players who have played SWG this sounds all to familar.

BTW - I played SWG from release until EQ2 was released. I also subscribe to Station Access, and still post on my SWG server board (Tarquinas) every so often....I know about the first Combat Upgrade there, and I know about the NGE when Lucas Arts pretty much took over (Julio Torres...!!) - While I don't play anymore (Have a pre-publish 9 jedi, and mastered every profession except Politician with my main ) I keep up to date with the changes, since I am an avid Star Wars fan.

I am far from an SoE fanboi also, but I believe this change will allow newer players (and also players who want to alt - which equal replay value) a chance to learn there class earlier, and in turn become better players down the line. Currently the way that the progression is, it takes people 20 levels before they even get a chance to play a class they are going to play for 40+ more levels down the road....and in turn need to relearn the way they play, since they start getting there class defined spells @ L20+ - Take for example a Paladin (which I play) from L2-20 you get no direct heal spell at all....so you need to learn how to solo, fight without being able to heal yourself. L20+ when you first get Blessed Aid, soloing becomes 100% different, because you can now heal yourself.

I do understand, why some peopel might be upset at this change, and think that it is a huge game breaking change, but I believe once people try it out, they will appreciate it...for the simple fact that they don't have to go through more then 1 learning curve.

I guess it is just a difference of opinion. I like the fact that there was a learning curve and that the 1-20 class progression had some differences . It kept me moving because I knew I would get some totally new spells/ablities not just upgrades. What is wrong with learning curves anyways? Guess it is just me again I like some complexity. I actually would like it if between 20 and 60 we could further specialize.
My main point though is that players need to be wary anytime SOE implents a major change like this.

I don't think it's a learning curve issue, really.

From my personal perspective, the class and subclass specializations and quests are fun ... the first time. However, unless you're chosing a completely different archtype, it really does become an exercise in pointless tedium for rerolls. And replayability has to be something they focus on because once you've gotten a toon to level 60, you have two choices: raid constantly, or reroll a new character.

Well, there's a third option: quit. But since that's what they'd prefer you not do, they need to focus on the first two options. The point they make is valid in that the class progression system was designed to "hold your hand" and help you determine what your ultimate profession would be. It wasn't put in to make things challenging or more difficult, the goal for the system was to reduce the learning curve for new players. But that's obviously not how it's working out. Most players, having researched the game before they start playing, have already decided what class they want to be. And if you want to be a necro, then that's what it should "feel like" when you begin playing... not "generic_mage_001" that turns into the class that you want 20 levels later.

Now, what would be nice is if they offered some mechanism, possibly a complex quest on the order of the betrayal quest, that allowed you to change your class within a given archtype once before you hit some milestone, like level 20. You'd lose any spell upgrades, and you'd start over with all Apprentice I spells at that level for your new class. So if you pick Berserker as your class but then decide that you'd really prefer to be a Paladin, there'd be a mechanism to do that.

I didn't see this asked earlier:
With the new "archtype free" system will there still be progression quests? Frankly they are some of the better quests in the game and it's sad enough that we only get two in the current system. I'd hate to think they were being done away with totally.

In fact I'd prefer to see more added... say one every 10 levels. Taking away archtypes AND any sprt of progression removes all context from the classes. It's bad enough we don't have specific trainers and/or guilds for our classes.

First, I doubt that you'll find PvP combat comprable to PvE in terms of speed or tolerance for high-latency conditions. In every game that I've played, PvP combat is invariably faster paced. Usually much faster.

Second, the issue with the ability to make "full use" of positional attacks is true, and they should be able to. But once I tell my character to start attacking back, then it shouldn't require I move myself around. The whole difference between an FPS and an MMORPG (or one of the key differences, anyway) is that in an FPS, it is you that are doing the fighting. Your reflexes, you reaction time, your skill at using the game mechanics to attack and defend. In an MMORPG, it is your character that is doing the fighting. Emphasis is on character development, skill selection, equipment, and so on.

Simply put, if you attack me from the rear and I hit my autoattack button, would it make sense for my character to continue to stand there with his back turned to you while you keep stabbing me in the rear end? No, it would not. It would make sense for me to turn and face you. And that's exactly what the game should do. Where the "player skill" in the game should come in should be how I respond to your attack, with what spells, attacks or defensive maneuvers of my own. Not how quickly I can spin my camera around. This is not a shooter, and it is not and should not be about one's mechanical skills with the keyboard and mouse.

Listen Joel Shumacher , we had enough of that when took over Batman from tim burton. Please do not infect Freeeport like you did Gotham.

Good Day Sir

So I've been thinking about the whole betrayal quest thing and I realized a few things. Originally the betrayal level limit was to prevent players from transporting an evil only class or a good only class to the opposite city. In one of the replies to this thread by one of the guys from SOE they said that betrayal quest (in regards to picking your class at the beginning) would work by switching you to the opposite class. As such a Bruiser, after betraying, would become a Monk and etc. If this is true, I see no reason why the betrayal quest would need to continue with the level cap. All that would have to happen is that no matter what level you are, your class, if it is specific to the city be swapped. I feel strongly that this could solve many of the problems that people have had all along with the Betrayal quests. As suggested above, the difficulty could be scaled to each individuals level, (as the Halloween haunted house quest was) so the integrity of completing something difficult would still exist. SOE, maybe you could look into this?