QFE Right now there is only one aspect of the game dependent on another to have in-game progression. Crafters are dependent on adventurers (and raiders, which are a subset of adventurers) for any advanced or special recipes. Adventurers are not dependent in any way on items crafters can make and especially not from items crafters can make from "essential" recipes. IF there are ever crafting rewards or a path to any (past level 10) crafting progression (even if only advanced or special recipes) which is attainable by CRAFTING, then having crafting progression available by raiding and adventuring is also acceptable. But right now, and for the foreseeable future, the only way a crafter can get anything beyond standard "essential recipes" is to adventure (which includes raiding). Noaani, I have no desire to reply to your latest comments since I find them nothing short of insulting not only to crafters but even to the majority of the player-base.
Can I take you up on that? Though it would not be fair, since you would certainly lose the bet. Most of the complaints I have heard have been from regular raiders who despise crafting. Many were from people within my own guild, who I know for certain raid a lot. They were complaining about being "forced" to do something they did not find fun. Getting rare raid drops is something most raiders do appear to think it is fun. But a regular raider with a level 70 adventurer who doesn't have a high level crafter is probably someone who does not like crafting, and such people aren't that unusual.
I haven't noticed people asking for fabled recipes without components that come from adventuring, just that the recipes themselves be obtainable by crafting only. But the reason why there is so little specific crafter gear, besides SOE's neglect of crafting, is that it is pointless. Crafting without gear is currently so easy, than no gear can make a noticable difference. We need access to harder recipes before gear will become worthwhile.
The dependancy that people want to avoid is within a single character. It should be possible to be a great crafter without being a good adventurer, just as it is possible to be a great adventurer without being a good crafter. Of course, crafters as a group should remain dependant on adventurers as a group. It would be good if high level adventuers had more dependance on crafters, though I know some people would object to that.
[p]I think there has to be an equal crafter/adventurer relationship for both sides of the game to meet the promises made when the game was designed and promoted. The problem is that the crafter side has been largely minimalized so that has not happened. [/p][p]That is a different, largely dead discussion of when almost all crafting goods were made mostly useless and not worth the time to carft and also became single combine instead of just reducing the number of combines. Single combines also removed the ability to RP a mastercraftsman also with the wave the wand, tap three times and wallah! You have turned wood, ore, roots, and skins into a weapon. [/p][p]I have to agree that the recipies are, as someone put it, "a nod to raiders" who happen to have lvl 70 tradeskillers too. The dev post in the thread seems to suport this too IMO.[/p][p]Yes they are tradeable ect as others are said but ask yourself this. [/p][p]How many raid guilds do NOT have ever type of high lvl tradeskiller in it? [/p][p]I think there will actually be very few. [/p][p]So that means that neither the recipies nor the components will probably ever be seen by any non high end raiding tradeskiller. In 3 plus months IF a guild is farming EH weekly and everyone in the guild gets all of the items for themselves and their alts who might want them, then others will see them. [/p][p]If the recipies were designed to help the crafting in general they would be more like the ones in the nest even if they are very poor items for legendary anyway, they are okay for extremely low t7 gear IMO.[/p][p] The better recipies/raws would be available as rare drops from trash mobs in very hard instances/dungeons (nek 3, unrest, CMM, EH, ect for both group and raid, as well as maybe a hard solo quest line which could give up enough raws and a choice of recipies to make one item if the adventure lvl of the crafter was high enough. The chance of any trash mob dropping them would be the same as a master dropping off a trash mob. The level of the item would be scaled to the level of the instance dungeon it dropped in but the overland trash mob drop could be any item since its so extremely rare anyway. [/p][p]That would still make them extremely rare but non raiding crafters who do adv (and with the big crafting nerfs I would say thats all of us now) would have a very small chance at getting them too. [/p][p]If the basis of crafters being maltreated is that their is no "danger" in crafting, then put danger in crafting. While mixing potions I screwed up and didnt do it right and released chlorine gas and poisoned myself and everyone else in the room doing 50 percent damage to our health. Course if they did that they would also have to let us cast heals and cures while crafting too. [/p][p]I don't mind their being rare crafting and recipe components in EH, I mind that that is the only place for T7 they are available besides low lvl nest itemss and I have not seen any plans mentioned for adding others. [/p][p]Like I have said in other post, they could be good for hard zones that are under utilized once people get the ONE drop or quest update from to keep them coming back to try for more components and recipies. Then neither raiders, groupers, soloers or crafters with their high lvl adv alts would have grounds to complain that they have ablsolutely no chance of getting them. Well at least they would be easily be shut up if they did complain i should say. It might also convince some soloers to group in order to do harder zones for a better chance at getting them make some non raiders be willing to raid every once in a while. You never know. lol. [/p]
[p] Yeah, just a little... :roll: [/p][p]My guess is it would make this thread look like a meeting of the Mutual Admiration Society.[/p]
Wait wait wait You're saying that something that isn't obtained by adventuring shouldn't be the same quality as something gotten through adventuring...yet earlier you say that someone can sleep through raiding, which raiders tout to be *so much* harder than everything else in the game and require *so much* effort from *everyone* in the entire raid and nothing else in the game can *possibly* compare to how hard it is, and that's why they should be given the best rewards and no other way to get their quality of reward should be possible. So sleeping through the raid and playing Simon Says with the raid and group leaders is effort while spending months (which some of us did) leveling a crafter (or more than one) is so much trash?
Noaani wrote: [p]This statement is the fundamental disagreement between our positions.[/p][p]Adventurers need adventuring stuff to do. Forcing adventurers to craft in order to gain adventuring rewards was a failure that has been corrected by introducing the commission system.[/p][p]Crafters need crafting stuff to do. Forcing crafters to adventure in order to gain crafting rewards; why expect the results to be better? Crafters need an end-game progression based upon crafting, not adventuring. Otherwise crafting becomes nothing more than a secondary skill for adventurers.[/p][p] [/p]
It has solved it for the adventurer who doesn't want to craft, but as long as stuff has to be crafted in high level zones/instances its not solved for the crafter. No one will ever think about taking a L70/10 crafter into a high level zones and guard him down to the crafting station, when there is a L70/70 crafter around. The problem is, the devs only see it from the adventurer perspective and forget the crafter when they design this stuf. Much worser they think its the natural progression for the crafter to adventure and don't think people are happy with 'just' crafting.
Wrong, hardcore crafters are often below level 10, and the last time I checked no class had power regen at tier 1. Therefore it doesn't matter which class you choosed when you didn't want to level him past L10. Often its also a RP element which class you choose. A mage at the forge looks little strange^^
A level 13 bard with an adept 3 power regen buff will be a better crafter than any other adventure class below that level. If you want to be the best crafter you can, and since you NEED to choose an advnture class, this is the way to go. RP be damned, if you want to be the best crafter you can be, be the best crafter you can be.
[p]A better way to put that statement of mine would have been "crafters need more crafting content other than grinding it out at the forge"[/p][p]I dont want SoE to have to force any crafter out killing stuff if they dont want to, but I do believe those that do should have more options avalible to them as crafters than those whom choose to stay in their crafting dungeons. I also think it should work the other way around, where an adventurer will have more options avalible to them if they also craft, as opposed to an adventurer that does not craft at all.[/p]
[p]Who said it takes *so much* effort from *everyone* to kill a raid mob and nothing else can *possibly* compare to how hard it is?[/p][p]Raiding is easy, there are very few skills involved in it past the ability to play your class, other than management skills needed from the raid leader. The diffrance between a bard actually being present at the keyboard during a raid is about an extra 2% to the raids DPS, so if they log on and are read to actually go on time, most guilds would be more than happy to have any bard come along (bards seem to be the hardest class to recruit atm). So, even a hardcore crafter that had never done any adventuring until these changes came out could have talked to a raid guild, been power leveled to 70, and could be raiding once a week with them already (EH is one raid, raid guilds do it weekly, a crafter has no other raids to do, so there is no need to raid more than once a week if you are a crafter). The only time you may be requred to actually be present in that zone is on mobs that remove buffs, then all you really need to do is re-apply them.[/p][p]Bards are not only the best class for a crafter to be, but are the easiest to play on a raid, and are the most in demand.[/p]
This would make me rather happy actually. What would be even better is if crafters had the same dependance on adventuers, thats why I like the provisioner recipes from Unrest.
[p]Your right, when SoE are desinging adventure content for this game, they do tend to think of adventurers much more than they do crafters. THat is what those HQs are you know, adventure content, but they have a nod towards adventurers that also craft. The commission system furthered that, by reducing the need for a non crafting adventurer to craft, they have given a further nod to those that do both.[/p][p]Why should they bring in non adventurers in on adventurer content? [/p]
wrong, tier1 crafter never run out of power. If you level them up, then you need drinks, totems, power regen etc. I have actually a t2 bard, he is much better then my t7 one, but still worser then the t1 crafter.
[p]I would like to state that this whole low level crafter BS is just that, BS. My main crafter (a lvl 68 Armorer) NEVER runs out of power unless I'm stupid and/or miss certain events (ie, I'm stupid). He's a lvl 31 Paladin with a sizable power pool, I craft in full armor, full gear without ANY issue.[/p][p]I have also done the same with my lvl 31 weaponsmith who is a lvl 70 Paladin, again I craft in full gear with no issues.[/p][p]So people need to get it out of their head that crafting naked and/or being a low level is required to be a crafter.[/p]
Some of us -real- players aren't min/maxers. My 70 alchemist is a wizard who is now 69 (she hit 50, the cap at that time and 13th on the server, when she was low 20s). I know crafting well and have no power issues even without stripping and standing on my head or other measures some take. I actually find the power regen in my high level gear to -help- with my crafting. I haven't compared side by side with a level 13 bard (your supposed perfect class/level) but why should I? My raiding character is a dirge not because dirges are needed for raids but because I had played that class to level 20 before and thought it interesting and wanted to play it higher. My dirge was actually suppose to be a throw-away character, one only to "test the waters" before I did a server move with Rijacki. She ended up as my raid prime because wizards are a dime-a-dozen for raiding (and I -actively- play dirge in raids and in groups and am offended, too, by your characterisations of bard players).
