Easy solutions to make Bruisers viable tanks at end game (not a complaint thread)

Discussion in 'Fighters' started by Obano, Jun 6, 2019.

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  1. Obano Well-Known Member


    Bruisers could really use some love right about now. Current mechanics have basically wiped bruisers off the map. Everyday I am told to either betray to Monk or play a different class entirely. Nobody can seriously argue that Bruisers are a strong class at the moment. Maybe that argument can be made for Monks but certainly not Bruisers. In that regard fixes should be aimed at improving Bruisers only so any changes that are made do not impact the balance of Monks.

    Issue #1 Avoidance and Strikethrough.

    The biggest problem Bruisers face right now is we essentially have 0% avoidance in Chaos Descending group content. Only time attacks can be dodged is when Epic 1.0 or tag team is used. Every fight is a mitigation and resist fight. Since we have less mitigation than other tanks this makes us the worst tank as far damage absorption goes.

    Bruisers were not designed to just soak up damage. The whole class was built up around avoiding damage not absorbing it. We don't have the abilities or base mitigation to deal with continuous high incoming damage. After the death prevents are gone the Bruiser just goes "splat" and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

    This zone wide avoidance report illustrates the problem. Out of 533 swings only 1 was dodged and 1 was parried. Ten were resisted and 78 were stone skins. That is basically zero avoidance. This is with Celestial tier defensive stance and dirge buffs. I am so over geared for this zone it is not even funny but still it is rough going. Some of the auto-attacks were avoided (126 out of 341 swings) but the real problem is the 100% strikethrough on mob abilities.

    The Solution:

    The fix to this problem is pretty simple. Just give us back our strikethrough immunity. Back in Sentinel's Fate, Velious, and Age of Discovery expansions Bruisers were great tanks because we had strikethrough immunity on our defensive stance. This allowed the class to function as it was originally designed as an avoidance tank. That is our niche that makes or breaks the class. Bruisers are supposed to be the avoidance tanks. With 100% hit rates on mob abilities it negates the purpose of our class.

    If this one issue got fixed it would solve most of our problems. Give Bruiser the same strikethrough immunity we had on our defensive stance back in the day or at least partial strikethrough immunity so our avoid rate is more than zero against mob abilities.

    Do NOT give strikethrough immunity to Monks. They don't need it but Bruisers certainly DO.

    Issue #2 Holding aggro

    Our threat generation hasn't really kept up with the dps numbers that other classes are putting out these days. A tank that can't hold threat isn't really much of a tank.

    Seven years ago Bruisers had a class defining ability on their mythical cloak. After we out leveled this cloak holding aggro became a lot harder. Wild beating is the best aggro snap we have but it is not as good as it used to be because we don't have this cloak any more. With the cloak wild beating had a range of 15m and gave 3 hate positions. Current wild beating only has a range of 10m and 2 hate positions.

    The Solution

    The fix is again pretty simple. Make this effect available on higher level gear or just change the AA so we always have this.


    Issue #3 DPS that hasn't kept up with other classes.

    Ascension abilities aside Bruiser dps has not kept up with Monk or any of the other tanks for that matter. Bruiser used to be pretty decent dps but not so much any more. This greatly reduces the appeal of the class to other players. Not to mention higher dps also makes it easier to hold aggro.

    The Solution:

    As far as DPS goes they should bring back the way KO' combo originally worked in Kingdom of Sky. KO-combo used to proc off over every swing on "one hundred hand punch." Instead of triggering once like it does now. KO-combo would trigger 8 times off of Hundred hand and up to 32 times on Savage assault. That was huge back in the day but it got nerfed because people complained. However, that mechanic would not be out of line for current content though since every tank is doing ridiculous damage and Bruiser hasn't really kept up. Rather than create a new ability to up our dps it would make more sense to restore our old KO-combo back to the way it was. I don't want another new temp. Work with what we have already.

    That is pretty much what this topic is all about. Give us back all the goodies that we used to have and Bruisers will be great tanks.

    (Below are Some miscellaneous issues that are less important than the top three)

    Issue #4 Closed Mind:

    I have noticed closed mind does NOT work half the time. A lot of Chaos Descending mobs will basically ignore this ability and stun you anyway even if closed mind is active. This is essentially a bug.

    The Stun, Stifle, Fear, and Mes immunity runes that every class has access too has really diluted the usefulness of closed mind. They basically took away one of our class defining abilities, turned it into an adornment, and made it available to everyone.

    The solution:

    The ability "closed mind" should work on ALL mobs. Also make it good until canceled so it can compete with the runes every class has access to.

    Issue #5 Unyielding Resolve (epic 1.0)

    Unyielding Resolve is supposed to heal the bruiser for 5% of max HP per second and it says it can only modified by direct means. However, there is a debuff in most Chaos Descending zones that reduces healing received. With that debuff Unyielding Resolve basically doesn't heal at all anymore. This is another one of our skills that has become less useful with current mechanics.

    The solution:

    Either of these would work. (Not asking for both)
    - Remove the cannot be modified by direct means flag
    - Allow it to heal through the Chaos descending zone debuff.

    If there is anything I missed please let me know. A Dev reply would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
  2. duckster Active Member

    Last time i grouped with a bruiser was ToT. They had the OP hammer and they kicked *** . Seems their CAs then were strong but havent progressed since.

    The AoEs should be 15m radius to allow managing large groups.

    Raidwide buff should be meaningful again.
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  3. Tesura Grimm Member

    Just a couple of things - first is that there is a type of “stifle” that is being used that I really hate because it doesn’t call itself a stifle, so stifle immune doesn’t work. It is a detriment that will say “target cannot cast hostile spells. Target cannot cast beneficial spells. Spells apply to CA’s in this case too. A couple of these have a root and is incurable, effectively making it a stun. So, while I am not saying it does work, it *may* be a case of that. Very frustrating even as a shadowknight because it’s just a stifle essentially. Worse as a healer.

    The second is that the heal nerf in zones applies to tooltip numbers. It does not affect percentage heals (atleast for tanks-don’t play healer enough these days). The issue is that trash mobs in SOLOS hit for ~5% of your health. Trash in heroics can hit up to all of your (mine too!) health from auto attacks, so 5% heal is not going to make much of a difference, especially with being unable to avoid attacks as you should. As a shadowknight, I have to stack my hot life taps with DRs and the use the larger direct heal lifetaps to off set stuff. I should do the math to see how much % total is getting tapped haha.

    The heal debuff in zones basically looks at the casted ability before certain modifiers (atleast fervor and cb that I know of, possibly ability mod too) and decreases it by however much is says. This is why older power pots only heal 1 point of power, essence of malice only gives like 25% power instead of the ~100% it used to. It does not look at the actual amount that lands after modifiers. Percentage based heals don’t have those modifiers, or a valid numerical tooltip base amount, so it bypasses the debuff (as it should).

    It would be nice to see more bruisers around. I get so sick of half our servers’ tanks being monks that don’t know how to play one.
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  4. quisling Well-Known Member

    This is a technique called "meta-gaming". It is what happens when a DM has allowed a group of characters has become too powerful for the intended content . Instead of doing whatever the monster knows how to do, it will do what the DM knows how to do. So, since the DMs know that characters have anti-whatever, they simply say "you can't do whatever it is that would make this content easier". They don't even bother with any sort of logic...you just can't cast, you just can't block, you just are afraid. No matter whether you had immunity or not.Its a cheesy way of compensating for short sightedness.
    Zeddicious and Soara2 like this.
  5. Obano Well-Known Member

    The current "meta-game" has basically stacked up a bunch of mechanics that make Bruiser essentially useless this expansion. We can live with maybe one or two things broken but to have it all stacked up at once means the class isn't viable for current content. It needs to be fixed. Our avoidance doesn't work the way it should. Can't hold aggro, can't DPS, can't emergency heal, immunities don't work, no survivability. The DM basically said we don't want people playing Bruiser so we are going to throw every nerf in the book at them and then overkill it times ten. Your options are betray, rerole something else, or quit.

    Solutions to these problems exist as detailed in first post but we are basically sidelined until something changes with the next expansion.
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  6. Earar Well-Known Member

    useless bruiser abilities ?

    close mind .. one defining ability ... but first, too many classes have somethign similar now and second, a lot of new CC cancel this
    fist of gorynn (but as all epic 1 buffs ... even more that it is only physical DR)
    brutal stand ... though great DR and fervor .. the NO MOVE makes it so underwhelming
    sucker punch .. remove positional. especially since bruisers could only be tanks and using it in dongeons is almost impossible and not worth the effort anymore
    sonic punch ... change it or remove the minimal range
    brutality ... the CA/spell potency buff is laughable

    bodyguard of stone .. make it proc to all type of damages
    soak hit .. make it be useable on bruiser himself
    drag .. fun but that's about it in raid .. don't know if still works in dongeons
    inner focus make it also all damage, not just physical
    unrivaled focus - all damage again
    martial retaliation .. change it completly ?? :D seeing how much bonus armor we can get just with gear .. it's too little. That kind of buff is only good if gear cannot increase % mitigation.
    unbreakable .. increase the ward .. or make it % health based. coz first it didn't increase with spell lvl or quality and increased very little with potency. It can be good tool ... but too low of a ward

    So first if they ever wanna make bruisers iable again ... would be to work on some of those skills ... not add new ones or give strikethrough immunity. If some of the above abilities were tweaked .. we could at least be descent tanks .. after we just need some number increase on damage.

    we can be a low ranged tank .. why not ? if it's the class' flaw ... but tbruisers need something to help them still to compete
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  7. Obano Well-Known Member

    In regards to Earar's comments.

    Closed Mind - this ability is legitimately bugged and broken in high level content. It no longer works the way the description says it should work.

    Fist of Gorynn - this is still decent and doesn't need to be changed. It is the Unyielding resolve part of epic 1.0 clickly that is broken because it lost the heal portion of the dodge.

    Brutal Stand - The duration is also too short to make much of difference in long drawn out fights. I agree the no movement part has got to changed.

    Sucker Punch - I am against removing the positional as it represents a player skill component of playing Bruiser. It separates those who know what they are doing and those who don't. There are three ways to use this ability while playing as the tank.
    - Use Eagle spin AA to turn the mob, and then sucker punch it
    - Drag while backing up will also allow you get the sucker punch positional in
    - Keep it in reserve until you lose aggro and then sucker punch to get aggro back.
    The only thing I would change is maybe UP the damage it does

    Sonic Punch - Again NO, don't change this ability. Skilled Bruisers know how to use this. I have found this extremely useful in Air PQ. When you get fluxed up into the sky use sonic punch. Not only will you be ported to the mob you will stay up in the air with him and be the only class that can actually melee him during that phase of the fight. Sonic Punch is also useful in getting aggro back from a mage that rips at a distance. Sonic Punch then drag and you get the mob back in position without having to run after it.

    Brutality - Double the stats on this and it might be considered decent

    Bodyguard of Stone - Agreed make it absorb all damage

    Soak Hit - Meh, casting it on yourself isn't going to change much

    Drag - as long as mobs aren't immune to it then it is useful. Maybe increase the duration is the only change I would make here.

    Inner Focus - Agreed

    Unrivaled Focus - Agreed

    Unbreakable - This should just be an extra death prevent. After all it is called "unbreakable."

    Ultimately I would rather have strikethrough immunity than a bunch of little fixes that may or may not work in the next expansion. Monks can keep their strikethrough immunity up practically all the time by cycling through their temps with only small gaps in between.

    I also don't want the class watered down and made with a bunch of generic abilities. There is nothing wrong with sucker punch or sonic punch if you know how to use it. I LIKE that bruisers take skill to play effectively. I don't like that most of our class defining abilities are broken right now.
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  8. Earar Well-Known Member

    So explain me how u use sonic punch and sucker punch while tanking an epic mob.

    Also while i agree on TLE it’s fun to kb mobs and jump behind to sucker punch them ... right now, on live the damage isn’t great enough to bother.
    Same for sonic punch. Except for pull, i won’t bother to move away from mob (if not tanking) just to use that skill. Damage is too low. So removing the low limit range would make it more usefull.

    Even assassins got their positionals removed and while bruisers were once a dps tank who could dps in raid and that’s why, opposed to other tanks, it has positionals (up to prestige traits). But not anymore. So there’s no point.

    Many would rather use an ascension than sucker punch.

    But every class ha between 1 and 10 useless spells/fillers anyhow. What irritated me was that both sucker and sonic punches were on the gm choices ...

    And why make soak hit useable on us ? Coz it’s one all damage stoneskin (and most likely with the one sec take all damage like SG). And we need all defs we can get. Could have a longer reuse when used on the bruiser.

    And i’d prefer a watered down usefull bruiser than a meme and a joke class
  9. Obano Well-Known Member

    How to use Sucker Punch on an epic: Click drag, back up slightly and simultaneously click sucker punch. Try it sometime. It works. The only problem I have with sucker punch is it does too little damage. It should do more since it requires positioning.

    Sonic Punch has a ton of uses. It can negate knockbacks if you are thrown across the room because it has a porting mechanic. If a mage or ranger rips aggro you can use it to port quickly to the mob and "drag" it back without actually having to run. You can also port yourself in the air with in. No other class can do this. It makes us unique.

    In this screen cap I am just sitting up there with Prashnar smacking him with ascensions. This is one of our few class defining abilities that still works the way it is supposed to.

    Soara2 likes this.
  10. Earar Well-Known Member

    exactly my point .. not worth doing so ... so better remove positional (same the positionals on prestige deep blows .. don't know if it then would be worth using but we'd have the illusion of a choice.).
    there's also eagles spin that works with sucker punch (but again if not epic) ... if at least it was as good as devastation fist ... then I could agree with u to leave it positionnal if the damage is worth it. I stopped using it, plain and simple

    Tons ? I see only 2 :) (coz the PQ one is so abysmally useless ... that I don't count it .. who does PQs ??)

    u cannot drag an epic if I remember correctly (at least cannot move it around) .. and u can do almost exactly same with mantis leap. coz with the knockback .. sonic punch will bring u back to where u got knocked back .. while mantis won't. and yeah u could potentially use it to grab a mob back from a mage. but it's too limited use ... how often do u do that ? if u tell me often then I'd tell u have aggro issues ...

    I also sometimes used sonic punch to pull nameds without aggroing other mobs .. coz there is a bug where u actually don't TP .. So I used it that way .. but my proposition of removing the lower limit range doesn't go against that (it's mininum 10m .. let us use it at melee range up to max range)

    also there's the bug of when u TP to a mob, u fall beneath the mod. Kind of fun

    now I can't stop but wonder why u have chi and crane flock on your hotbar ...
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  11. Obano Well-Known Member

    I agree with you the damage should be be boosted up to make it more worth while. Though I still use it and like that it requires being behind or flanking the mob.

    Aggro issues? You don't say. It is under point number two on the top post dude. Of course I have aggro issues. I am a Bruiser. I am using sonic fists + drag combo almost every single fight. So yeah that is tonns to me. Yes, drag works on epics unless it is a scripted fight with a rooted mob. Maybe if I had the 15m range on "wild beating" like it used to I wouldn't have to use sonic fists so much. But every time sonic fists lights up I know I lost aggro and click the button.

    I just noticed this yesterday after getting the fighter rune that the added damage effect doesn't work with "wild beating" either. Just add that to list of things that are broken with Bruiser.
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  12. Earar Well-Known Member

    u didn't have the rune ... could be a reason for more aggro issues ... I used to manage aggro .. ok

    but they changed the rune, it only adds damage on abilities that have threat, not just positionals.
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  13. Obano Well-Known Member

    I have the rune now and still lose aggro all the time. The fighter rune is not really a lot of help because it does not apply to all our aggro generating abilities. The description on the rune says "All hate and hate positional abilities."

    The way the description is worded this should be considered a bug if it does not apply to "wild beating" since wild beating is a hate positional.

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  14. Earar Well-Known Member

    coz They changed the rune but didn't change the tooltip .. as they usually do.

    check merciless stomp. tooltip says damage increases if used on a KD enemy ... nothing on the damage portion shows that anymore.
    martial retaliation, same ... says maximum health but has been change to mitigation.

    that's the fun part of spells, need to check what is still relevant and what isn't.
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  15. Obano Well-Known Member

    Merciless stomp never had a functioning tooltip. It just did more damage if the enemy is prone and it was proven through ACT logs to be a significant damage boost. It is still part of my casting order if you see my hotbars. I use shoulder charge + Merciless stomp to get the increased damage. It has been a complaint since 2004 that it didn't work on epics. Historically Bruisers have always been great heroic tanks but in CD content we don't even have that going for us.

    Who is your main Earar. Do you still play Bruiser?
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  16. Heccie Thump Member

    Obano, I fully endorse your crusade the bring the Bruiser back to the forefront of the devs efforts. I recently came back to the game and was hoping and praying for some love to have been thrown our way, only to be a little disappointed and saddened that they are not only still the least popular tank, but seem to be dragging further behind than before.

    Once I get more playtime under my belt I hope to throw in some constructive ideas. One thing I have noticed already - if Brutal Stand had the no moving caveat removed I think it may be a little OP, although it does have a 6 min recastt ime to make up for it.

    ps My bruiser is on Thurgadin server and is called Broozer, hence he will never become a Monk. Never. Ever.
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  17. Obano Well-Known Member

    It is true. Bruisers are falling even further behind. Every expansion the other tanks get stronger while we get progressively weaker. Bruisers just aren't unpopular, the class has literally gone extinct.

    It is because of the nerfs they put in years ago get progressively worse with each new expansion. It is like compounding interest. What starts with a few percent nerf at first will become a hundred times worse 6 or 7 years down the road. So if they do nothing Bruisers just continue to get weaker. The class needs serious buffing; not little bandaids or fine tuning. The problem is fundamental to how the class became broken when they took our strikethrough immunity away while simultaneously giving mobs 100% to hit rates so our avoidance is effectively zero. They made it so the class that is supposed to be the "avoidance tank" now has the lowest avoidance. It is pretty absurd.
  18. Earar Well-Known Member

    you stick to your strikethrough immunity

    but adding that like I said wouldn't change much in terms of people wanting a bruiser.

    Look what other tanks bring.

    Guardians this xpac are still the best tanks with all their stoneskins ... coz compared to KA .. this expac u WANT stoneskins and not 100% avoid abilities.
    Zerk don't have the best dps of the tanks but they bring tons of melee dps for the group. Right now they are tank dirges.
    SK bring good dps and are good tanks this xpack.
    Monks also have great dps. They have less tools to tank bulwark this xpac but they are great dps and bring good support abilities. Winds (50%DR to a target) and intercept (20%? DR) are great. Monks also have a easy time to offtank and peel the named if need. Also dragon stance is hate magnet.

    paladins are good tanks this xpac ... but u see them less just because SKs are so much better. Paladins heals aren't that usefull anymore. Their dps is lower, their tanking is ok but not amazing and while they have nice buffs, just the epic 2 buff (10 fervor raidwide) is getting less benefits with people stacking more and more of it.

    bruisers have the same dps as guardians. They have more snap tools than aggro tools. so they can easily get a mob but they can easilly lose it also. defensively they are a bit similar to monk this xpac, not having the best tools for bulwark, and as support they have soak hit and martial leap (soak hit is nice to help another tank to deal with bulwark, martial leap idk honestly if we would not get OS if we intercept ^^. Also soak hit forces u to be in defensive ... which sux but we get what we can). But bruisers are lower than monks in every aspect like I said many posts ago. Striketrhough immunity wouldn't change that. Maybe then bruiser would be monks equal in term of tanking ... but for everything else, they would be lower.

    During PoP I betrayed for a while to monk, It's impressive how easy monks are. long range, no aggro issue, great dps (u don't need to rely on good dps classes when u PUG) easy tanking in off stance, and so on ... strikethrough immunity does'nt come close.

    Look at paladins .. they are falling behind also because SK are so much better. So a class has to be as good as its sister class (if different fields, like zerk and guard) to be played. So whether monks need to get nerfed on one field (would be AoE to me, dps and aggro coz that was their weak point) and make bruisers shine there.

    As long as monks are so good at so many things, bruiser won't have a real spot.

    U can of course still play them, they are not broken, they are not full of bugs and so weak they cannot do their job, but they don't bring anything. Even if it was niche ... but at least if they excelled at it.

    And when u see how DBG balanced classes since KA, it doesn't give much hope. The only thing they would do to bruiser is same as they did to other classes .. add few 0s on some abilities and done.
  19. Obano Well-Known Member

    Look man, we have abilities that say one thing and then don't work the way the description says they should. That is by definition broken. Our defensive stance stance says we are supposed to avoid a certain percentage of attacks. We have have zero avoidance. That is by definition a broken ability. Closed Mind not granting the immunity it is supposed to is another example of our stuff not working. The Celestial Mastery rune not applying to our most important aggro tool (wild beating) is broken. All these things add up meaning our class can't do it's job and is broken on a fundamental level.

    Is strikethrough immunity the only problem Bruisers face right now? By all means no. There are a tonn of things wrong with the class. I just prioritize the strikethrough issues as the number one priority. If I could fix one issue that would be the one I want fixed more than all the others. Bruisers are not a dps class. We are tanks. Nobody wants a tank that can't tank.

    I challenge any player to try to raid with a bruiser in its' current state. Find out how broken this class really is. Earar are you up to that challenge? I don't think there is a single raiding Bruiser left. They all quit, rerolled something else, or betrayed to Monk. If there is a raiding Bruiser that is still around I would really like to talk to them. See what they think about this mess.

    As I said to Gninja the other day: "Raiding has become a privilege as players are slidelined and cut from rosters [due to class balance]. It is not good enough to want to raid. You have to play the right class or you won't be raiding. Every guild is recruiting raiders but it is only a few key classes. We all see this but rarely is it discussed openly or honestly."
  20. matta New Member

    bonecrushing combo is op. id put bruiser at #2-3 for tank dps. give monks vital trigger and things would be more even
    stone deaf and stone cold will handle bulwark most of the time (100% with tenacity or epic dr up too)
    more utility would be great:
    give brutality cb/cb overcap
    and take the range off mantis star
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