Dumb fire Pets / non Scout pets still broken...?

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Deezknives, May 24, 2016.

  1. Azian Well-Known Member

    Hrm, clear as mud. That could mean something or it could simply be a distinction without a difference. Kind of sad that we have to parse the notes like this. Brevity and clarity is something an old college prof of mine used to preach. I guess they have half of it down.
    Livejazz and Neiloch like this.
  2. Therein Active Member

    So now they'll parse 1.5 bill instead of 1.7 bill. Well played devs, Well played.
    Jrel likes this.
  3. Veta Well-Known Member

    Sure, my parses might look neat, however, I parsed 1.7bil because of a hammer, deity, and using pre-clickies to get myself up to 20k pot+additional fervor, not because of standard stats. A lot of people complaining in these threads don't even use those items and wondering why/how people burst/parse so high.
    Livejazz and Beee like this.
  4. Gigglezzz Member

    Exactly what Veta just said. Class balance for an entire class should not be based on people using Hammer, pre-clickies, etc. Balancing should be on standard stats of the class. Not everyone has the hammer and the pre-pull clickies or tanks that do proper 10 counts to use said clickies. I understand totally that the top 10 raid forces are competitive as hell, I truly understand this, BUT you guys really should stop the nerf campaigns that have been going on all the time. Not just with summoners. It went from summoners etox, to warlocks, to beastlords, to wizards, to now summoners again. It just has just gotten bad and it seems its always pretty much the same people from the top 5 or so raiding guilds screaming for nerfs of some class by saying "Hey I am not at top of the parse", or this class is supposed to tier 2 or tier 3 or whatever tier they want a class to be in (which has been existent for a very long time). Give it a rest already and just enjoy the game
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  5. Arieva Well-Known Member

    Based on what I'm seeing I lost about 100-150 mil per named in MC. Slightly different group setup from pre and post nerf of course but not overly. I don't recall getting any single target buffs in either group. I beat the assassin by maybe 50 mil on several fights but I have an OP hammer. That said if assassin also had a hammer I probably would have been decimated. I didn't use any of the "tricks" veta is talking about (Necro's have the option of devs of war, conji's do not), nor do I think I used any pre clickies on my run last night pre nerf. Fight times were similar.

    I'll know more next time I raid. My feeling is our ability to spike (of which is a huge part swarm pets) has been significantly reduced. That's extremely unfortunate based on the encounter mechanics that are prevalent this xpac. So at this point is the sky falling for the class? No..but we are probably back to being second fiddle to sorcerers and predators/BL. And I'd think that equally geared it's probably a large margin not a small one. When an assassin can nearly keep up with me without a hammer and I have one? Yeah.

    I also want to point out that in heroic content summoners need a minimum of 9-10 seconds to realize the potential of a swarm pet by the time it is cast and run its full duration.. To get them all in there doing their thing? More like 20 seconds. If you have at least one competent class with the ability to spike damage you are lucky if the fight time even reaches these duration in any zone besides master's chosen (or maybe SK). Since swarm pet sharing was fixed it was finally sorta fun to run around in heroic content because the ability to spike was there. Before then it was getting to the point it was about as much fun playing a summoner in heroic content as playing a bard (which completely blows..not enough time to even charge a VC in heroic these days). I'm going to hold off on any further opinions till I see some raid data on the changes..but until heroic fight times increase substantially I will say that without the ability to spike damage the class is completely neutered (and other classes suffer this as well thanks to DBG's outrageous stat inflation)
  6. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    I'm interested to see the final results. In fairness, Arieva, the Assassin you lost to is considered one of the best period in the game period. AND, it was a heroic zone.

    I've heard from a few summoners that they think the overall change will equate to about 20% damage loss for swarm pets, and nothing more. And of course, those statements, too, will either be supported or refuted by the soon-to-be-incoming large quantities of data.
  7. Veta Well-Known Member

    Well, the 1.7billion dps parses he is talking about was during raids. I only use Dev of War in MC, it doesn't do a lot of damage in current raid content. I ran MC today and my parses seemed relatively the same as they always were when I ran it, except on a few where my dps was higher due to better resets. I am quite sure they only stopped the double dipping of stats from buffs; which is perfectly fine with me, as it shouldn't be intended to work that way.

    Summoners, initiate sandbag sequence on my mark.
  8. Yoube Active Member

    Trigger finger at the ready for sandbag initiation!!!
    Livejazz, Neiloch, Veta and 1 other person like this.
  9. Arieva Well-Known Member

    Well..and necro's might want to shoot me for this.. Should a 12 entity pet, 5 minute original recast swarm be on the reset list of the hammer? If a necro with the hammer is still doing large enough numbers to make their fellow elite raiders also sporting the hammer cry, then I would question that first. Assuming that they decreased the effectiveness of x stat per little pet, 12 of those little buggers out at once, every 30 seconds is still a lot of pew pew. in comparison each conji swarm has a max of 3 entities. I'd hate to see swarms continue to be nerfed based on some necros ability to reset horde.

    Again we'll see once more data comes in..initially I'm seeing a 20% loss of damage overall as a conji with a very very limited data set to go off
  10. Veta Well-Known Member

    Why should they remove it? Its on par with communion + hammer. I was a conjuror for... 2-3years? I betrayed one night a couple weeks ago, back to conjuror, just to show that conjurors and necromancers are probably closer than they have ever been before. Which is why Neiloch then stated

    because I was that "one." The sad part is that I did almost did as much as my necromancer side with terrible AA setup, no character development selected, including no GM stances, no class cloak, had not played the class in several months (ya, its not easy to break the lightning bolt button habits), etc. It was a quick change just before raid started to show that conjurors are still just as good as necromancers.
  11. Yards Well-Known Member

    I say fix undead horde so it doesn't freeze the enitre raid for it's duration, either that or put on tooltip " will cause no one else to be able to cast anything for duration ".
    Ruckus, Livejazz, Entropy and 2 others like this.
  12. Neiloch Well-Known Member

    Doesn't explain other summoners high performances in comparison to other classes with those same toys. This is bleeding into 'i parse double second place because I'm just that good' which isn't going to get anyone any where, especially without full disclosure of methods. Any objective analysis precludes taking people at their word.

    Players don't need to break down parses and analyze them to see these relative gaps, any casual onlooker could see it evident by them voicing their experience and people suddenly flocking to their summoner alts.

    Again, anyone who thinks there isn't a fundamental problem with summoners being over-tuned are delusional or disingenuous. More data will tell the tale in the coming days but I suspect there won't be a huge difference.
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  13. Veta Well-Known Member

    There are other people out there who are not playing summoners, with these same toys, that are putting out just as much, if not more.
    Livejazz likes this.
  14. Gigglezzz Member

    Arieva, classes should not be balanced off of an item(s) that are not readily available to the entire class. Saying you need to change undead horde based off of the hammer is crazy to say the least. Not everyone has the hammer, so please stop looking at just your individual raid and trying to base an entire class off of how that person performs in your raid. And I play a conjy as well as a necro in two different raids and communion = undead horde damage wise. It has always been a complaint of necros that the resuse time of undead horde should be on par with the conjy communion. So in asking for a nerf to necros, you are in essense asking for a nerf of your own class. Just stop all the nerf talk already geez.
  15. Gigglezzz Member

    Exactly what Veta said. This is really getting old.
  16. Neiloch Well-Known Member

    What fights?
    How often?
    Whats the ability damage break down?
    Per fight game performance/lag?
    Copy/paste parses through chat provide nothing of meaning.

    And as people liek to point out so often, a small minority means nothing in the face of the general average. Oh hey 2-3 players figured out a way to pull it out with super stuff, welcome to meaningless.

    Even if its 100% skill its just means things still need to be balanced. Of course it would also imply summoners are all suddenly awesome at their class which is lol.
  17. Veta Well-Known Member

    Actually, I give up. I quit caring, I am done with this thread, I don't want people to think I am "white knighting" my class, when I said previously before it was broken.

    However, this part in particular is quite funny. Most of my parses are me using super stuff, inflating my dps further than it should be, guess they should be considered close to meaningless.

    To answer your questions:
    What fights? Multiple, AE/ST
    How often? Frequent
    Whats the ability damage break down? I don't know, I wasn't given one.
    Per fight game performance/lag? Is there a server that doesn't lag? Unless people are making up random lag during those lag threads
    Copy/paste parses through chat provide nothing of meaning. You're right. They don't. I told them I wouldn't disclose their info. If you want them to come out from cover then make a Ranger dps thread, like bards did for VCs. You will get it eventually I am sure.
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  18. Arieva Well-Known Member

    I'm not going off my own raid, I don't even have a necro in mine. I was simply suggesting that in Revelations raids the imbalance may lie in the fact that Veta is a necro with the hammer, versus a conji. They have since posted that they have done their own testing to show that isn't the case. I'll take them at their word. I was just suggesting a possible alternative to "all summoners are broken and OP", should the numbers after todays adjustments show certain summoners are doing what others (aka sorcerers and predators, the classic t1's) deem too much. I agree that no class should be based on the hammer parses and if you follow my posts on these forums you will find I've said it several times in many different threads. The sad fact however is that in several high end guilds, that is exactly what they are doing already.

    I'll bring back up heroic and while guilds like revelations doesn't like to talk about heroic because all they focus on is raid, heroic content is a big part of the game for most of the rest of us. I first saw a 1.6 billion parse from an assassin in heroic. Nerf assassins? I think the named died in 2 seconds....Well of course I wouldn't suggest nerfing assassins just because on a super short fight they can excel. I would suggest upping the dang hitpoints so classes can get more than one spell off..But to the point that other classes are capable of it..there ya go.
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  19. Jrel Well-Known Member

    For the first ethereal wave this summer, for every conjy being beat by me by 50% or more, I've ran into 2 that doubled my parse in MC/SK (and higher). Geared about the same as my assassin or less, and they didn't have ethereal resets or runes. And I did use Bitter Essence of Disdain for omg pot.

    Livejazz likes this.
  20. Ashandra Well-Known Member

    Just grab a soup tin and stand in line its where you will end up if these ppl get there way.I to have seen other t1 dps classes destroy stuff so fast I can't even get a dps chain off.