Druids "Infusion" on Varsoon

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Boldac, Dec 12, 2022.

  1. Boldac Active Member

    A while back Curse of Darkness was gutted due to individuals abusing it by causing it to proc way beyond its intended amount. This not only caused issues with damage numbers being inflated, but also how it impacted the server before the proc.

    Now, here we are in KoS and we are seeing the same problem with another skill being abused to proc way beyond what it should be. I'm talking about infusion. Druids only have to cast a "beneficial" spell to make it proc. And proc it they do, but spamming low cost, quick cast spells like Spirit of the Wolf. To make things worse, where CoD was a temp buff, Infusion is up all the time and procs like crazy. I can't imagine that if CoD was causing a server issue, that Infusion isn't as bad, if not worse, for the server.

    I have a druid and was able to replicate the crazy proc'ing off of SoW repeatedly.
  2. ultraviolet New Member

    Wow this was a really unfortunate post, to get responded too so harshly.

    You asked for a nerf and you got it. Infusion has been absolutely destroyed. Its so bad I'm posting here, and I don't even have a fury on my account. My best friend on the game and someone i've played eq2 on and off with for 15 years just had the furies primary spec gutted. Lets see how the nerf has affected infusion.

    #1 Internal cooldown applied.
    So previously when the fury cast something like a group heal then there'd be a very small ae hit with a considerable power cost for each trigger. The range on the ability is a very small aoe around the target that receive the beneficial spell. With an internal cooldown on the ability that means the group heal will trigger a random player in the group to have an aoe around a single person. Once again note the damage of a single hit is very small like 1/10 the dmg of a nuke.

    #2 The internal cooldown gets consumed and ZERO triggers of infusion
    So the warden / fury casts their group hot, say healstorm, and the cooldown is triggered to hit someone that is not right next to the mob (infusion range is very small). So therefore no infusion triggers

    #3 Even with the previous rules for infusion furies were hitting as the hardest hitting healers, but under teir 1dps. If you were getting beat by a fury, that was because you were bad and the fury was good. Asking for the person who is beating you to get nerfed is unfortunate.

    ------------------suggested revamp of the fury/warden infusion nerf------------------
    Option 1 - Revert the Nerf
    Put it back the way it was, being aware of the significant downsides (may require unsafe positioning for the fury and their group, chugs power and needs continual illusionist power support if they are to maintain infusion)

    Option 2 - further increase the downside
    fury's need a lot of power maintenance. Instead of costing mana per trigger change it to mana per hit. I don't see anyone complaining about the Inquisitor fanaticism buff which creates more damage tor less power than the fury's infusion.

    Option 3 -Modulate the damage potential
    Instead of scaling the damage from its previous state (lets call that 100%) to (0-5%) post nerf, then scale the dmg down to 60-70% of what it was. This could be done many ways:
    By scaling down the base damage per hit (by 30%)
    By scaling down the number of aoe targets that can be hit (capping at 8 like the wizards firestorm for example)
    By making infusion a single target hit per beneificial spell trigger -- instead of an aoe hit per beneficial spell trigger.


    Ultimately the only thing about infusion that is overtuned is multiplicative effects that scale too well in large AOE fights. The person who originally posted the complaint was probably complaining about the fight in labs against the boss with a ton of adds. On that fight there are so many adds, and if the fury is in a stacked group they could potentially have 11 aoe triggers per group beneficial spell cast (each with no target limit) that hit every single add. In this fight infusion is OP..

    In single target bosses, or light encounter bosses / hallway raid mobs - Infusion is not OP. It is actually quite well balanced.


    Lastly, let us realize this is a game. Nerfing warlock's curse of darkness removed the most fun part of playing a warlock in raid from the game. Warlocks everywhere stopped playing. Because this is a game and curse of darkness creates a moment of excitement. The same is true of fury. Fury's get to top a parse from time to time on trash fights that die really quick and they use porcupine offensively vs. defensively. The curse of darkness nerf was undone, and the same nerf that gutted them is now done to core healers on raid forces. Lets undo this please.

    This is a good thing. When DPS is a sine wave different people get shining moments that feel good, and make the game rewarding and exciting. If you are an assassin and a fury beats you on a 6 second trash fight by using porcupine, that is fun. What is boring is when every class does the exact same damage every pull and everyone wants to go to sleep.

    If we nerf furies, the mage group off healers -- and the class that has "fury" in their name --- normally the highest dps priest --- then we just make the game less fun for our raid forces.

    The EQ2 creators know these highs and low are exciting which is why most dps classes have temp buffs. Swashes get daring advance, and can swap to a weapon with a delay under 1 second procing daring advance. Timed with COB and its haste they can trigger both so many times their parse will double for 30 seconds. Are we nerfing swashes? No, because highs and lows are fun.

    A wizard's hits a freehand sorcery, catalyst, double cast fusion on 3 targets and parses 20k. Do we nerf wizard? no because highs and lows are fun.

    The glass is full! Half with water, and half with air! Lets help every player have fun -- and make a more balanced approach to addressing fury/warden infusion spec.
  3. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    Fixed it for you.

    Infusion had a thousand ways to be fixed reasonably. I personally think the change was overkill and primarily motivated by raidwide spells triggering it. Should have made it trigger only on heal cast, not beneficial. But the state it was in was wild, and nobody should be surprised by a change.
  4. ultraviolet New Member

    This is exactly what I'm saying I agree completely. Also I agree with wizards should be able to top a parse (but they don't need to top every parse --- which is the highs and lows are fun).

    I think only having infusion trigger only on heals is great. Then you don't get people spamming Spirit of the Wolf buffs to proc infusion is just silly. That would be a wonderful way to fix it.

    Want to take it off porcupine -- sure then furies won't make tier 1 dps have a head explosion moment when fighting Uustalastus Xiterrax. That is literally where this entire question is coming from. People lose their mind because of the parses on this SINGLE fight. The boss with relatively low max hp, the adds with relvatively high hp, so then the boss dies very quickly and the parses are crazy.

    The idea that we are nerfing / editing character classes on the TLE (from the state they have always been and why we are all here) because a few warlocks are sad they didn't top a parse - just sad.

    I suspect these warlocks are sad because they want to top the parse - but can't because their mage group isn't buffing him. If i was this warlock's troub and knew they were in here complaining about my use of Curse of darkness - i'd be like WTF - no jcaps for that guy. Now we see the warlock trying to get his fury nerfed - no lucidity or primal fury for you.

    Like what are you doing -- if your mage group getting your fury nerfed, what ??? lol? seriously?
  5. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    I think you're missing the big picture here.

    First, it's not just that one fight. It's every trash pull, because functionally every single spell a fury casts is a blue aoe, and nobody else can compete with that on unlinked encounters especially. And that might just be trash, but trash is like 90% of this game.

    Second, people were asking for a nerf because it was very clearly out of balance, and you'd be better off bringing 4 furies than pretty much anything for the mage group on AOE/Trash pulls. It was that over-the-top. Warlocks specifically weren't happy because they had a very similar situation result in their entire class getting gutted. Hypocrisy will always sting, but even furies understand that the ability was imbalanced. I can't think of a single fury that was sitting there thinking "Well this is normal and fine."

    The best approach is to hope they change it to heal-only at some point in the future, and relive with fond memories the few weeks where furies were the best aoe dps in the game.

    To quote an excellent one:

  6. ultraviolet New Member

    I don't see how i'm missing the point. I said I agree with you??

    "I think only having infusion trigger on heals is great." - Ultraviolet


    I also shared/suggested in my original post in which I shared several options for proper scaling including:

    1) By scaling down the base damage per hit (by 30%)
    2) By scaling down the number of aoe targets that can be hit (target capping like the wizards firestorm for example - 8 hits)
    3) By making infusion a single target hit per beneficial spell trigger -- instead of an aoe per beneficial spell trigger.


    Also note most guilds can't pull 3+ trash encounter packs at a time, as you seem to be alluding too. So basing a server wide nerf that affects guilds simply furthers the gap for less progressed guilds to experience all the content the TLE has to offer.

    Nerfs should never be built around the experience of top guilds in a vacuum. Balance adjustments when done mindfully, preserve fun, bring balance but do not homogenize classes, and consider the entire player base of the server. Nerfs done to oil squeaky wheels just hinder all our experiences.

    And leave warlocks crying "nerf troubs they get more out of Curse of Darkness than me". Then when the warlock that asked for the nerf sees their ability nerfed into a position so bad it no longer merits a spot on their hotbar the crying continues. "No un-nerf me". I mean the un-nerf of warlocks was definitely the right thing to do. But the best thing would have been to send them packing to begin with because curse of darkness wasn't broken.

    The same should happen with infusion, it should be un-nerfed and get, at most a minor adjustment. Putting an internal cooldown is not a minor nerf. It makes it so bad it is no longer a viable spec, its just garbage now.
  7. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    Nerfs are absolutely going to be based around top guilds, when the usecase that makes them broken applies only to top guilds. Infusion is still perfectly fine in heroic content or casual raiding.

    There was no un-nerf of warlocks
    , and never was the complaint that troubs were getting more out of CoD. There were performance issues with the ability that were left unchecked for a long time. They just hamfisted the fix for that in the same way.

    You can absolutely agree and still miss the point. The point is, you do not allow obviously imbalanced abilities to continue.

    It was obviously imbalanced.
    And it is still imbalanced. In the other direction.

    It still needs to be fixed. Just as much as it did when it was *too* powerful. Nobody disagrees with that either.
  8. Clintsat Well-Known Member

    This was a significant nerf to Furies on live servers as well...
    ultraviolet likes this.
  9. ultraviolet New Member

    You are on raid. You are a mage group fury. Your troub is jousting in and out, mages are at further range to avoid getting aoe'd--------------
    Fury casts a group heal.
    Group heal hits many targets including yourself, an illy pet a summoner pet, etc.
    Infusion triggers 1 time - it selects randomly from the targets of group heal including the caster, mages and pets
    the one trigger is centered on the illy pet -- there is no mob around the illy pet, so infusion does ZERO dmg.
    Fury casts hibernation.
    Infusion triggers 1 time - it selects randomly from the targets of hibernation including the caster, mages and pets.
    This time it randomly selects a necromancer at max range - so infusion does ZERO dmg.
    Fury sees tank is spiking and casts back into the fray.
    Infusion triggers, and hits an aoe
    3 mob encounter for a total of 3 hits
    Since for 20 years the majority of infusion damage has come from group heals - group heals are likely, in a group setting to proc zero dmg, or if lucky, proc a hit in a small aoe.

    Since KOS first came out infusion would generate a single hit for every target that received the beneficial spell cast. Recently up till this nerf infusion would trigger an aoe for every received beneficial spell cast.

    This is a greater than 90% dmg nerf. For example if you value an AOE as 3 hits. Then the result from casting a group heal is as such: So assuming a mage group with illy, conji, necro, troub, fury, lock = total 9 group heal recipients. Enemy is a 3 target encounter.

    From KOS to a few years ago::::: Group heal = 9 hits of infusion, assigned randomly in range against the 3 targets
    past few years: group heal = 9 aoes of infusion, total of 27 hits, evenly hit if everything in range
    present moment: group heal on 9 beneficial recipients = 0 hits if selected beneficial recipient not in range, if beneficial recipient is in range then small aoe for 3 hits

    Absoute best case scenario:
    (9-3)/9 = 6/9= A 66 % damage nerf when compared to infusion of state from launch of KOS up through the past few years.
    (27-3)/27 = 24/27 = 89% damage nerf when compared to the way it has been the past few years

    Very common scenario (selected group heal target out of range):
    if fury is casting group heal instead of a fury nuke, its likely aoe dmg is happening or is coming soon. This fight is likely a boss fight and mages are staying out of close range. So no damage happens from group heals at all.
    (9-0)/9 = 9/9 = 100% dmg nerf
    (27-0)/ 27 = 27/27 = 100% dmg nerf

    Note if 100% of the casters were in range, that was the best case scenario. So if one troub was in range, it would be like a 98-99% dmg nerf (sometimes it would trigger on the troub, most time it wouldn't)

    Fury is soloing:
    Nerf has very limited effect. Dmg from infusion was low before and still is.

    There we go -- that's the science of it. If you want to tell me I don't know what i'm talking about then write your own scenario case.
    Sunlei likes this.
  10. Maergoth Well-Known Member

    I don't think anyone's going to disagree that it's gutted and needs a fix for raid content especially. But there are also dozens of AAs that are useless in raids, so I'd just hope for something to get fixed in the next decade and take credit for when it does, since everyone else has resolved to just.. not use it.
  11. ultraviolet New Member

    This would be so easy.

    Revert the nerf and cut the dmg by 30%. OR

    Revert the nerf and make it single target (as it was when KOS went live). OR

    Revert the nerf and make it trigger on heal spells.

    I mean I get what you mean there are lots of things that could be improved. This one is just so easy. Fixing arcane minion - maybe not so easy, i don't know. Making chanter mezz spec line do something -- significantly harder to figure out. This though, super easy!

    Come on devs you got this! Just ninja fix it :)
  12. Sunlei Active Member

    Infusions been changed weakened- its not so great or fun....

    I'd like to see Furys able to cast heals on the run now...cause casting speed & reuse was horribly nurfed.

    Even the aa some class had for -cast speed/reuse- has been changed to less upgrade/or only beneficial spells or set to zero on aa tree lol!

    Lets give furys heal on the run so they are little more useable in raids except for turtle shell and group cures.. Thanks, /s :p