DPS with Stam line... 1h and shield or 2h/DW?

So with him in offensive stance he managed to edge you by a mere 100+ dps with you in defensive stance? Haha.
The second test makes sense to me though I'll say with my 1 hander/buckler combo my dps goes down if I start using CA's. One CA for 600ish does not equal a double attack for 560+700.
I think your tests did nothing but prove your own point from what you posted. I'd have to see the exact parses to come to any sort of different conclusion.
In the end it comes down to if you are having fun or not. In my case I *wish* I could use a hulking 2 hander or dual wield two gigantic axes but the reality is I enjoy seeing my DPS be as high as possible and holding the best aggro I can better. I have found this to be the case with a buckler. If you get more fun from using a two hander then in my eyes, that is the right way for you. When it's all said and done, we're still Berserkers and still kicking [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]!

@ Syrius, i thought you would post this fairly, not with a slight baised opinion. I guess not.

The PvP fights in the arena, syrius mainly won. However ALL of these when we both went full out, came within 2-3% health of eachother no matter who won. We both agreed that buckler reversal was having an impact on that.

The DPS tests, we both agreed to add on 100 dps to the parse when he was in D stance, as the slash offered from offensive would of gave no bonus as we were hitting low 50 mobs which never dodged or parried any hits. The 100 DPS was presuming he would proc a few times.

All in all, 2 hander is a completely viable option, and if you all still dont want to take the FACTS on board, then feel free. For as Syrius said, i've proven my point.

I appologise Enrage if you feel I was biased in my report. I guess it would of been better if I had just said 2hander owned Double attack?

If thats how you saw it thats cool...I thought you did really good dps in pve when you used your CA's, and I don't have a way to match your dps there so you did open my eyes quite a bit. I was completely wrong about the 2handers ability to dps...

As for our fights, they were close yes, but not as close as you make it out, after the first few fights, I was holding back to let you get going, as I told you at the time. I don't know what else to say about that really...except what I have said repeatedly...those fights don't test DPS, they test skill and that is a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] waving contest I don't wish to get into, sorry...I will save that for fighting freeps...but I will say there is no way I would trade in my buckler in when pvp is concerned. No way in hell...

This is a good post and it is very cool that you two decided to test this out. I have gone back on forth between the two hander and the one hander and buckler with mixed feelings. I myself originally hated bucklers. For a zerker there is no cooler weapon that a huge double headed axe or sword. I am not surprised that Enrage was able to put out this much DPS with the two hander as I have actually done my highest parses with two hander, not with one hander and buckler, but there are many other things involved in this. The choice of AA and CA and their level will make a big difference in the outcome as this test proves. For group mobs I still think the 2hander is better for DPS (be careful when those mobs turn on you), but not much more than one hander and buckler with double attack. However, for single mobs and for tanking and auto attack in general the one hander and the buckler is simply the better choice, not only will it give you close DPS of the 2 hander but it will help your avoidance (as proven by the result of the arena match). However, since this post is about DPS and not tanking let me just stick to that. I think that given the fact that Syrius was in DEF stance and his AA built is not optimized for DPS,(excluding the STA line), had a significant effect on the outcome of the results. Not that it might’ve out DPS the 2 hander, but it would’ve probably been a lot closer and yes perhaps it would’ve out DPS’d it. There are a lot of things involved here asides from your weapon; your choice of AA’s, your CA’s level, type of mobs, game style, etc, all can be played around to make you a DPS superstar (probaly at the cost of defensive abilities to help you tank)
However, I would like to see how the two hander stacks against a one hander and buckler with STR 448, STA 448, WIS or INT 448 built.
Also select a mob that has no master rage associated with it. Giant master rage could’ve been used without one or the other even knowing it. Not to put you down or anything Enrage. I am actually glad to see these results cause I myself use two handers a lot, but to try to be as evenly balanced and impartial as possible when doing these tests. I myself have spent over 70 plat respecting to find the perfect balance for DPS and Tanking.
Message Edited by Kannabis on 12-28-2006 01:49 PM

lol.

I can promise you i didnt use a master rage, i dont even have the rages on my hot bars, only ever use them for named or raids. The tests we did, we basically proving that you do not need the stamina line to do good dps. We werent bothered about what other AA choices eachother had, the argument goes generally in this community, that no matter what you have, as long as its the buckler line, you have the best DPS. Its nice now, that our tests have shown people another road they can take.

As for Syrius being in D stance, we mentioned the effects it would of had, which wouldnt of been much except for the proc as slashing / crushing / piercing bonuses do not add to your damage, they only add to your ability to hit the mob, and neither of us missed once. So we agreed to add 100 dps for the proc effect, which is generous.

And yes, its good to finally get some clarification on the entire subject, as coming from someone who has tried both methods, 2 hander just does SO much better for me in an AoE DPS role. Just the other night, i got jumped by a good freeport zerker and a good assassin, the zerker had his buckler and 1 hander. I managed to kill the assassin and make the zerkers vision of madness drop before i popped mine. I'll be uploading a video in the next few days (probably sunday) of some PvP fights, hopefully that should be fun

I think Buckler Reversal is very very nice, a superb tanking option.

As a PvP tank i would take the buckler, however thats not what im used for, so i dont need it, i just need the DPS
Message Edited by Legiax on 12-29-2006 01:35 AM

Can you throw up buckler reversal then put a tower shield back on? I see that the icon stays but do you really get the benefit?

No, the effect suspends until you re-equip a buckler.

I respecced to Wis / Sta to go along with a new nifty buckler and my DPS went up significantly (Ascendant + cold adornment). I used to be Wis / Str and before that Int/Wis/Str with the Dragon Bone Axe (107 DR at the time). I'm still able to MT EoF mobs / PvP raids and I can turn on the DPS when our guardian is around. So in essence, once I swapped back to the buckler I was more versitile and effective than I was trying to spec for tanking or DPS individually.
This is using Ascendant / Buckler of the Howler, almost all M1's, WIS 4/4/4/8/1 STA 4/4/8/5 and 20 random Zerk AA's mostly in Whirlwind
p.s. Venekor raid DPS is better than this thread leads you to believe =P

Especially if Darkshine shows up...hell their 5 or 6 will up the Raid wide dps astronically....their Templar out dps's all the scouts combined just auto attacking...true story...

I was never good at short posts

I just made this response from experience to someone asking about which AAs to go down with. I'm also a 2h proponent.

Check out http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=27332, my post should be pretty hard to miss. I wanna know if any of you 2h users have parsed against Buckler AA types using those setups, mod bonuses, weapons, and the like.
Message Edited by yettii on 01-03-2007 11:02 PM

I've been agonizing what to spec since EoF went live. I usually do small grps and EoF instances and raid a couple of times each week during which I'm usually either dps or offtank. I'm moslty in relic/doomrage drops, have the annealed defender, ironplate buckler, a 93dr 2h, and draconic deflector. So far I'm 4488 wis 448 str and 41int. It's ok but I've often wondered if I should spec stam for higher dps. Now with the EoF skill changes I'm wondering if the loss of avoidance is worth it. I'm usually grped with a warden so I don't need stance mastery to hit things. Anyone else in a similar role/gear have any opinion on what's worked best for them? I've thought about STA/INT for more +parry since that's what I'm weak on, but +parry has such a small impact on my avoidance post-eof and isn't unavoidable like block.

looks to me like you are already set up to go with a 2 hander. if your gonna tank alot and have problems holding agro then the buckler+sta. is the way to go IMHO. but i like the 2 hander for dps so thats what i use and when i need to tank i use a good onehander and the Deaconic Defelctor (for some reasion i usualy dont have a problem keeping agro). i'ts really up to you. the only thing i'm wondering about is why you have the ironplate buckler and are not going down the STA line. unless there is somthing about that buckler that i dont know about i wouldnt use a buckler unless i went 4-4-8-8 STA.

hope that helps, and if it dosent at least lie to me and tell me it did.

Hehe I'm just one of those guys who sits on the fence forever b4 committing

The only reason I keep getting tempted to go buckler is that I spend a good bit of time going sword/shield and I'd love to be able to do decent dps that way as well (I tank alot of small 3-4 man grp OOB, MMC, and other instances). Not tough stuff, but usually have 1 healer and 1-2 dps only. I keep 2nd guessing the loss of 5% avoidance I guess...

This is the reason there's so much argument over what does more dmg.
So the guy with a 2 hander in this example just left his AA's unspent did he.....?
Remember when working out the maths that you have to factor in what you could have done with all them AAs - you could have spent elsewhere if you hadn't taken buckler, then add that to the 2 handed weapon - could have maxed out crit, or dps instead etc.
Once you do that, 2H and bucklers line start looking a lot closer to equal. The big advantage of the buckler line is that you can tank while doing this much dps without getting ya butt handed to you.
Message Edited by WolfShark on 01-17-2007 01:13 PM

Meh.

Everyone knows i am the dude who championed the 2hander DPS. And i still stand to that.

My guild recently has required me to become a pvp tank, so i had to spec 4-4-8 STR, 4-4-8 STA, 4-4-8 WIS, i have 704 str solo and the Cudgel of Pain, and i notice the damage is a lot less than with my 2 hander.

However my tanking ability is better... its a trade off and you simply have to decide.

Nope. I had all 50 AA's in the warrior tree spent. 448 STR, 448 WIS, 458 INT. I've said it before and I'll say it again, AA build is extremely important. I'm currently using a STA build for offtanking right now and have dropped my 2H build. My STA build is NOT geared completely towards DPS. I'm currently very close DPS wise to where I was with the 2H. My 1H is still crap though. I've been picky and waiting for a sword to drop for the second ability in the INT line. I have no doubt I could out do my 2H build with a better 1H and a build aimed completely at DPS.

The same is true for those with the STA line. It seems many believe if they pick it they'll immediately surpass a 2H weapon in damage. Then they pick their other AA choices to help with tanking, not DPS. Take these builds and weapons for example.
STA 4488 (76% increase in autoattack), WIS 4488 (19% increase in autoattack)
Cudgel of Pain (DR 73): 73 * 1.76 * 1.19 = 152.89
STA 448 (76% increase in autoattack), STR 448 (12-14% increase in autoattack), INT 448 (45% increase in autoattack with a sword)
pristine imbued xegonite long sword (DR 56): 56 * 1.76 * 1.12 * 1.45 = 160.05
Here, the lesser 1H beats a low end fabled 1H due to the AA build. Let's look at the 2H I was using and my 2H DPS build.

STR 448 (12-14% increase in autoattack), WIS 448 (19% increase in autoattack), INT 458 (47% increase in autoattack with a sword) Sword of Pain (DR 91): 91 * 1.14 * 1.19 * 1.47 = 181.47


[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], the 2H wins. Wait a second, that really is a lousy 1H sword. Let's find something better. Ok, here we go, Empowered Ghoulbane, a quest reward with a DR rating of 66. Let's go back to the 1H sword build.

66 * 1.76 * 1.12 * 1.45 = 188.63

Empowered Ghoulbane isn't even in the same quality tier as the Sword of Pain (legendary vs fabled).

AA build matters. Weapon choice and availability matters. A lousy 1H can still out perform a decent 2H with the buckler build.
Message Edited by uux on 01-17-2007 10:05 AM

Cudgel of Pain (DR 73). From 448 STR, you'll get about 16% increase in autoattack from that weapon, 19% from WIS, and 76% from STA.
73 * 1.16 * 1.19 * 1.76 = 177.33

What was your previous 2H build and weapon? eq2players also seems to disagree about you having that many points to spend. Looks like you're missing a few which means you haven't hit the full potential of that build yet.

Also, 448 in STA doesn't give you much of a tanking advantage at all. You don't have the extra % block, riposte, or parry. IMHO, this is where the trade off is. You can give up extra damage potential, or give up the extra potential avoidance.

This is why this forum is AWFUL for new players.

STOP NUMBER CRUNCHING IT DOESNT WORK!!

A) Damage Ratings are affected HUGELY by weapon speed, this makes the whole damage rating thing at T8 worthless as we normally reach a ton of haste.

B) Yes, im not at the max of my build, im nearly there though, and i will be going 4-4-8-4 STA, which will help with the tanking. And also note, when i say tanking, i do NOT mean main tanking, i pull brigs and scouts off healers while we have a MT. Get into a good PvP guild and you'll realise it demands tactics! (eeek)

C) My old build with my 2 hander was 4-4-8 STR, 4-4-8-8 INT. And Accept this or not, i do not care as its been proven, everyone in my guild has seen it, and tons of people out of my guild have, i did more dps than i currently do now. I had a sword with a 193 max on the damage range, which is MUCH more important to the damage of the weapon. On a crit hit i would swing for about 2000... with my cudgel on a double attack with 704 str, if i crit swing on a double attack im at about 1700 ish.

D) Yes, even with my current build it makes a big difference to tanking, a) i have a block chance now, whilst small it goes off a lot. b) the extra 4% avoidance is worth it in a small'ish way, and once i finish the build i'll be sorted. P.S - Read other peoples replies, and please think outside your little number crunching world where nothing actually works due to diminishing returns on various stats and the fact that at 200 haste you reduce the weapons attack speed by 125%, theres a ton more, but i've proven my point to a lot of people now and i do not feel the need to carry on. I've tried for such a long time to get this message through. Now that people and listening, i can accept a few ignorant people who dont want to face upto the truth.

Ta!
Message Edited by Legiax on 01-17-2007 11:06 AM

Parsers don't lie.
Controlled parses using advanced combat tracker showed the 2 hander out dps the buckler line repeatedly using two very similar zerks on Venekor server.
I'm a monk, so outside view here.

HAHAHAHA. The only thing that showed was one AA build versus another, and how differently equipped berserkers faired differently. There wasn't anything even remotely controlled about it. Also, by not utilizing the full potential of the AA choices, it could be biased. For example, Accelerated Strike requires you to use 3 combat arts or wait 3 minutes to trigger the haste. Was that done? Was that added to Legiax's results? Or was he being parsed without the added haste (which then has a bias towards the 1H as the 2H user wasn't allowed to use their AA choice)?

Parsers don't lie. You should parse for yourself sometime.
Message Edited by uux on 01-17-2007 03:42 PM