DPS with Stam line... 1h and shield or 2h/DW?

I can totally attest to what is said here.. very valid.

With no destruction or open wounds I can do 1.2k If 1.2k is the top of raid parses, not to be an **** or anything, but honestly that is really low. I know in most fights I need to get at least 1500 to get on the parse top 8 (sometimes 2k+). Blowing my wad, I usually get in the 1800-2200+ area (depending on single or group mobs), and that is not with a stacked dps group - a coercer OR a dirge in group for buffs and 1 healer's buffs.
Last night as MT, I was often hitting top parse with OW and Destruction. The numbers were between 23-2800, average being probably around 2500 (the times I went all out, not overall average). It has been a while since I had a chance to parse like this, but its great - and entirely possible.
I am entirely not trying to toot my own horn at all here, I just wanted to add some numbers to this conversation as well. Zerk can be a real mean sob granted the right group make up and skills.
Stamina line is really the Jesus for a zerk if you want to maximize dps. When I had to choose, I really, really wanted to use 2 handed weapons. After a LOT of testing I could just not ignore it any more, even for tanking.

Perhaps this is a PvP Server thing then, cos i've not been in one raid yet on venekor where all the DPS were parsing over 1.6k, and where the zerkers were going above 1.2k every fight. However, are you all talking about busting out the big moves? or just the basics?
My original figures were just using the basics, your examples were including OW + Dest. I said i reguarly parse above 1.2k with those. Im just wanting to know what peoples basic shiz is all about.
When we all go for it with the big guns, its a totally different story.

Everyone start posting copies of raid parses!


Message Edited by Legiax on 12-21-2006 12:41 AM

In a raid, if you're playing a DPS role then you should be buffed for a DPS role. 1.2K should be achievable without kicking off OW or Destruction.

You also stated previously:

18 people (3 groups) * 600 = 10,800. I understand some people are over 600, but the fact that most are around 600 puts the total average near there. I'm not knocking you or your guild, but I'll tell you that number is on the low end. Hardcore raiding guilds are doubling and sometimes tripling that number.

If you want to do the controlled parse and are worried about gear not being equal, well, it's not hard or expensive to both outfit yourselves with the same quality vendor trash.

hehe,

there is actually one scenario he could outdps 1H+buckler with his 2H (if both weapons have the same quality).

If he is in an instance with a lot of big encoutners and he focusses a LOT on open wounds and lets his timer reset for the next fight, he probably will outdps you with a 2H...

That's not a normal standard situation afcourse :smileywink:

I'm not so sure on this even. Last I knew, Open Wounds and the double attack stacked. You would double attack multiple mobs. I currently have a better 2H than 1H and stuck in a 2H build at the moment so I can't verify if it still works that way.

According to the math you would have to have one really realy crappy 1hander for a 2hander to be competetive with buckler spec...like a 60dr 1hander with double attack still comes out to 105 dr with 76% double attack...

Syrius

Ok, I get a little sic every time I see someone say they parce at the top of the list in raids. It’s not that i don’t believe you; it just proves to me that I’m a **** 70 zerker.
I have relic gloves feet and shoulders, class hat, shadow fire BP, dark chitan ring. My bracelets are old, and I’m wearing fabled t5 pants but I’ve yet win anything better from drops or find better on the broker. I was using a fabled 2 hander for a while, and every once in a while I would get on the parse with 700 dps or so (blowing all timers including Jug). Recently respect and went str and sta, at first it was great, I was parseing higher in groups and I was actually doing well in pvp (had about a 75 kill streek solo). But now I just I’m just terrible. I don’t even make it onto the parse channel in raids, and yet I see the lowest person on there hitting 450 dps.
I’m not mastered out but I do have 6 or so master spells. im not poor but im not rich either so buying all masters (wich is kind of a joke any way as the broker usualy only has a couple that i dont have) isnt an option, and id love to find a sweet fabled one handed axe, but ive never seen the shadow axe drop, and i dont even know where to look for any onther one handers.
I tired to gear for dps as my guild has an mt and 2 backups, but now I can’t even do that. I’m thinking of getting Gut Roar just so that I might be useful in raids, but as for now I think they just take me along for charity.
any suggestion will be welcomed, and if you guys would give me your oppinion on the better bucklers, and one-handed axe's, as well as where they drop, i would totaly not hate that.

ATM, all I have is legendary 1H's from KoS (7 month break; just started raiding and no 1H's have dropped yet; nothing interesting on broker or guild bank), which are about 63 DR. That puts it at about 110 DR with 76% double attack. Now, I have a Sword of Pain which has a 93 DR (I think, can't look it up right now). I get about a 14% boost in autoattack from +22% crit chance in STR, and about 45% haste from the INT line. That puts it somewhere around 153 DR. STA+INT or STA + 2 other lines could out DPS my current build even with the lousy 1H. Just waiting for the AA NPC to be put back in game...

The AA npc be put back in game? The chick through the red teleporter in S. Qeynos Mage tower is still there as of 2 days ago...just fyi..

Sy

Check again. Removed as of yesterday. Link
Message Edited by uux on 12-21-2006 12:50 PM

Hmm, might also mean that the rest of their raid don't know their classes very well. Might also mean they simply don't have the right classes, and group up with the right classes.
T6 legendary/mastercrafted will be better than t5 fabled. T7 legendary/mastercrafted would be better yet.

I understand where you are coming from, but it is not right as open wounds goes off twice if you double attack, not just once. It is not considered a proc but an AE autoattack, so double attacking gives 2 triggers of open wounds.

It's not unusual for a well equipped zerker to have zone wide dps over 1,000. With the new AA lines bringing more dps, it will probably be closer to 1500. And this is zone wide, and probably tanking in defensive stance. I parsed over 1,000 zone wide in deathtoll last week. Some fights were 700, while some were 1800. Double attack, crits, and lots of haste and dps mods. Not hard to do.

Don't feel bad man its not easy to rip out dps like that. Personally, I play this game way too much and I am full fabled with all masters except a couple T6 ones I havent been able to get. I also have the best dps fighter 1h weapon in the game currently (unless there are any new better ones in EoF I haven't seen), which is planar axe of destruction with a 90.3 damage rating, decent delay, and a 2 procs (1 adornment).
Buffs also make a huge difference in a raid parse. Depending who is getting dps/haste/proc buffs and how much, will impact how the parse is structured to a fair extent extent. With the recent combat changes, you definitely need to be in offensive stance if you are wanting to do dps as well. It is harder to hit mobs now, try to get some +weapon skill mods if possible. I use my reclic gauntlets (only relic I use except helm) for the +8 slashing, every bit helps.
As for buckler advice, probably the most easily obtainable decent one is the one that drops from Ironfang in PoA (metal snake on 3rd level). Another drops in HoF off of the guy on the table I believe, and the one that drops off trash in Halls of Seeing is nice as well. Nice fabled ones come from Matron in Fallen Dynasty and the Howler in Freethinkers.
Also get dps +10 adornments. If you have a deathtoll reward amulet - adorn it and put it on your wrist, then adorn MoA and put that on your neck. Unless you have a really good bow, get a NON imbued throwing weapon crafted for you for range and put a scintillating judiciuos easyloader on it for another +10 dps, Those 3 will stack for +30 dps which is a nice lil boost. (I hope this doesn't get nerfed!)
Other than that advice, just try anything you can, do things different, run ACT (parser) to compare results. Testing and more testing is how I find my best results - it works good for me.
Good luck.

The issue isn't that Venekor doesn't know thier classes, our server went live when KoS was released, we weren't all 60 when KoS went live, we were level 1 on newbie isle, so alot of you guys had a 60 level head start on all of us. I left AB the day PvP went live and never looked back. We had to start from scratch, with new guilds and new groups, not people we had known since nov 2004. It takes time to gear up to even raid KoS, even before the EoF combat changes. Plus most of the pvp experience is well...pvp, not hard core Raiding all the time. So it stands to reason our server wide dps may be a bit lower then those of you on a reg server (blue server) but its not uncommon to the berserker experience in this game to be up near the top of group and raid parses since we are built to dps like madmen...
To Enrage,
Before Bel Vaka split off from Core, I was raiding regularly with a good part of Bel Vaka's Raid force, so I am pretty familair with What Bel Vaka can do Parse wise, Ackron was always up near the top...Tynkir made parses often as well, and Ahabb..ect...they are all able to do good dps and I don't knock them, I had a lot of fun raiding with them when things were going good before they all decided to focus on guild raids. I am sure that you do good dps in your raids, but the situation has not changed, and won't change that a Sta speced zerker will out dps a 2handed Zerker most of the time. Sooner or later you will come out with me for some controlled parses and we will see the answer to this quandry...

Just tossing this out there as maybe some will find it useful as I play around with my own build. The main point being how significant the double attack modifier is in making up for the loss of damage rating when using a 1H.

I'll take 3 weapons of equal quality to compare. They're all swords to take full advantage of the haste in the INT line.

pristine imbued xegonite great sword: damage: 45-135 (72.11), delay: 2.5
pristine imbued xegonite long sword: damage: 25-74 (57.69), delay: 1.7
pristine imbued xegonite short sword: damage: 13-39 (43.26), delay: 1.2

Approximate potential autoattack gained from AA choices against a single target:

STR 4/4/8 = +12% autoattack damage (weapon specific; see this info)
STA 4/4/8 = +76% autoattack damage
WIS 4/4/8 = +19% autoattack damage
INT 4/4/8 = +45% autoattack damage (+17% w/o a sword)
AGI 4/4/8 = no single target gain (calculating the effect this line has is a bit more troublesome)

For pure DPS (without anyone buffing you):

1H & Buckler: STA/INT/WIS = 57.69 * 1.76 * 1.45 * 1.19 = 175.17
1H & Buckler: STA/INT/STR = 57.69 * 1.76 * 1.45 * 1.12 = 164.87
1H & Buckler: STA/STR/WIS = 57.69 * 1.76 * 1.12 * 1.19 = 135.31
DW: STR/WIS/INT = (43.26 * 2) * 1.12 * 1.19 * 1.45 = 167.19
2H: STR/WIS/INT = 72.11 * 1.12 * 1.19 * 1.45 = 139.34

Message Edited by uux on 12-22-2006 10:33 AM

In that case you have to have a very crappy 1H to loose from any 2H :smileyvery-happy:

Alright Everyone, as promised I am here to report the outcome of the controlled Parse between Enrage and myself.
There were quite a few surprises for both of us when we conducted our test. But lets start at the start. The first thing we did was pick a spot where we could find an abundance of the same type and level mob so that Accuracy would be at 100% and hps, resists, and the like would be consistant. So we headed on down to Sol's eye and down the porter to the Giants in the halls of lava.
First test was just Auto Attack....no surprise to either of us Double Attack Won by about 100 dps. Weapons used were Frostwrath for 1hs and Guldrek sword of the sky for 2hs.
Second test was using CA's and this really surprised me but I have to addmit I was impressed...Enrage got up to 960 some odd DPS where my dps stayed consistant with my Auto Attack dps of 640ish...So I did not gain any, and if anything I might of lost a few points of dps from using my CA's but Enrage picked up over 400 dps from using his CA's...interesting..
Third test was going rambo on a single Target...Enrage out dps'd me again...had me by over 100 dps on this test me coming in at 1280 dps and Enrage hitting over 1400. ((Later as we were going back to Qeynos I realized I was in D Stance the whole time...dumb...))
We did a few more tests, I had enrage unequip his weapon and we tested the effect of CA damage on dps with no auto attack dps what so ever, and Enrage did put out more dps from CA's then I did...not sure if he had more masters, or what that was all about...
And finally we headed to the arena for the PVP test...All our fights were close...but I was the clear winner (I think I lost one out of 20 or so fights). I still don't think the pvp test shows much, its more about skill then it is dps testing, but it was fun. I think the reason I beat him every time we fought was that my build gives me near Towershield defense with comparable dps to his 2handed spec which would be an argument for the buckler, but again its not really important to the whole reason we went to test, which was DPS.

So in conclussion 2hs build with AA specs can equal or even be better than double attacking buckler speced zerkers for dps with the right amount of haste and other mods. I will let Enrage post his spec and data so you can get a better idea of what he had going to get the numbers he does. He told me he runs at about 160 haste self buffed, which is a huge number to me, with the gear we have available to us on Venekor...but it sounded right when I saw his parse numbers.
The math says weapons of Equal quality ((ie fabled, legendary, ect)) should yeild a double attack out dpsing a 2hander every time, but it didn't in my test. Unless there was some factor I didn't have for my data...*shrugs*
Grats Enrage...you proved me wrong...

QFE

I'm not surprised at all in regards to the results. The outcome was very dependent on AA choices, not weapon type (if given weapons of the same caliber). For example, given the data I posted previously mixed with the AA choices the two of you currently have.

Syrius: STA 4/5/8/8, WIS 4/4/8/8
pristine imbued xegonite long sword: damage: 25-74 (57.69), delay: 1.7
57.69 * 1.76 * 1.19 = 120.83

Enrage: STR 4/4/8, INT 4/4/8/8
pristine imbued xegonite great sword: damage: 45-135 (72.11), delay: 2.5
72.11 * 1.12 * 1.45 = 117.11

Due to the fact Accelerated Strike isn't always up and there are breaks in the haste, 117 is being optimistic**. The AA build matches the results. Syrius was on top of the autoattack DPS. Also notice how low a 120 base damage rating is in comparison to a build that uses 3 AA lines in my previous post. Your autoattack could have been much much higher. Had Enrage gone down 3 lines while competing with your current build, he should have out DPS'd you on autoattack even.

As for the CA damage, Enrage's profile at eq2players states that he went 4/4/8 down STR. Not only does the critical chance modify autoattack damage, it can give quite a large boost to CA damage. So even given the same combat art quality and same amount of strength, someone with a higher chance to crit should parse higher. Again, that seems to match the results.

There really is no contest. If you want the most DPS available, you have to choose the lines that provide the largest modifiers.

**NOTE: Accelerated Strike is easily always kept triggered when constantly fighting and using CA's. Autoattack only probably meant this was always down (about 28% haste at 4 points) unless the duration was allowed to pass for the auto trigger.