Dirge's Irae -- Whysprr's Adventure Blog

Discussion in 'Dirge' started by ARCHIVED-Whysprr_Wyrd, Oct 30, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED-Priestbane Guest

    Tomlesh@Mistmoore wrote:
    Meh. I HATE the strength line. I feel railroaded by efficiency, and lose the fun factor. And I find that I don't even USE it most of the time. And where I do use it, I can mostly get away with claymore/ethereal signets, as long as everyone else plays there too. Plus there's lots of people who ALSO do it. And I've yet to fail over an AE.
  2. ARCHIVED-Whysprr_Wyrd Guest

    Sorschae@Najena wrote:
    [p]What's the significance of 'claymore/ethereal signets'? [/p][p]Whysp[/p]
  3. ARCHIVED-Topa Guest

    Sorschae@Najena wrote:
    What does that even mean? I know there have been times when my guild (and my previous guilds) have been unable to beat encounters because of their aoes. I mean we figured them out before too long, but zoning out without killing the mob, because you kept wiping to it, because you hadn't fully developed a strategy to deal with its script... I dont know if that would qualify as failing, but its certainly not winning. I mean I suppose the Strength line's value depends on how much raiding and what encounters you are doing, but several encounters come to mind where it is a life saver. It allows a ton of flexability, if you have a good burn going and are worried about an aoe disrupting the kill, the vampires that have the huge raid life drains, I remember it making Cruor in DT alot easier (though I havent been to DT in a while I cant speak to the difficulty of the encounter at this point), a couple other mobs stand out as Bladedance being a very strong answer to their rather massive aoes. The personal one is awesome too when you are dpsing and would rather stay in then deal with jousting. Whysprr@Kithicor wrote:
    Qeynos Cutlass (end reward from Claymore line) procs 6 unreliable seconds of aoe immunity randomly. Etheral Signets grant the user of the clicky 36 seconds of aoe immunity at the cost of some status points and gold, purchased at the city merchant (if guild lvl 50).
  4. ARCHIVED-Crimson Dragon Guest

    Topanga@Everfrost wrote:
    and a significant amount of power these days.
  5. ARCHIVED-Priestbane Guest

    Topanga@Everfrost wrote:
    [p]It means exactly what I said: I've/We've never failed a raid target due to the target's AoE. Now don't take that to mean I'm lordying up my uber button mashing/jousting/raiding skills... I'm not. I have fairly low EoF raid experience, and what raiding I do is around (my saturation limit) 3 times per week. I'm not the envelope pusher, I haven't beaten EH, and I'm not fantastically geared. I go in long after the bleeding edgers have figured out and conquered the mob, because I don't have TIME for anything else.[/p][p]Cruor, frankly, wasn't all that, even without the AoE invulnerability. Tactics beat everything, every time. As a MT bard ALL the time (I'm almost never not the MT bard), I take almost no damage, or if I am, I time, joust, or ranged fight. I can get in and place my debuffs without being too worried about taking an AE shot, and mobs just don't DO those 30second AE stuns anymore (maybe vampires do? I haven't done much against em yet...)[/p][p]There has been no situation where the mobs AE (no matter how powerful) was the deciding factor in whether or not we could take the fight. And really, ALL I'm saying, is that the strength line is just no fun. I rarely, if ever, use the active parts of it (blade dance and turnstrike), and the passive parts are not so much of an issue for me either (parry buff is negligible, and the str/agi addition on Harl's is also not that important to me.) It hasn't helped me complete anything, and it doesn't add to my play style. I still have it, and will be respeccing out of it shortly.[/p][p]Madcap@Befallen wrote: [/p]
    [p]Worse still, you can only have one at a time, so you cannot base an entire raid run out of em (only one mob, really).[/p]
  6. ARCHIVED-LafleshKittu Guest

    Please, Whysprr, Dear, any next entry coming soon ?
  7. ARCHIVED-Harvash Guest

    Sorschae@Najena wrote:
    [p]Just a silly note on something that twists my whiskers...pieces are not "NO DROP" they are "No Trade". If they were no drop, then no one would have them =P.[/p][p] Post on, sorry about the digression.[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p][p] [/p][p]Edit: ok, upon thinking about this for a minute, I am sure the pieces I am looking for are indeed No Drop...or sure seems that way.[/p][p]<Slogs back to OoB for the 1.2m to the fifth power time>[/p]
  8. ARCHIVED-Topa Guest

    Sorschae@Najena wrote:
    I guess my experiences have just been very different. Sorschae@Najena wrote:
    I agree with this, but would say that having Bladedance as another spell in our arsinal gives the raid one more available tactic to call upon when creating a strategy. Either way though, I mean if you get by without it more power to you. For me Bladedance has more than pulled it weight. It has help stabilize fights by avoiding an aoe giving my healers an extra 30-40 seconds before we need to be at full health and warded up, and ensured that last 15-20% burns of nameds health go down before a potentially raid wiping aoe has gone off, etc. As far as the added abilities the line provides for me they are some of the most noticably powerful ones of the bard AA lins. The sword attack can be a huge help to throw up aoe immunity so that I can stay in on an aoe and get someone a rez without worring about dying, causing more problems then I'm solving. For an MT/OT role buffing our Parry song can depending on MTs gear be very helpful. I agree the stat song buff is probably the lines biggest short coming, but if in the dps group still isn't horrible (I agree though for MT group its mostly useless). It's personally my favorite of our AA lines.
  9. ARCHIVED-Lornick Guest

    [p]Everyone has those things that irritate them. The one that bothers me is people saying "prismatic 2,3,4, etc" There is only ONE prismatic questline ffs. The things players refer as the sequel questlines are completely and totally unrelated. But I digress. [/p][p]I still refer to no trade stuff occasionally as no drop. The reason players say it is from EQ1. When EQ1 was first released you could in fact "drop" items onto the ground. Monks were famous for littering copper all over Norrath because they couldn't handle the weight. It's not like monks would be encumbered or anything, but if they had more then like 15lbs of stuff on them then they suffered adverse affects to combat stats like avoidance. Items that players couldn't drop or trade were referred to as "no drop". For players like me that used the term for literally years it isn't an easy habit to break since it's essentially the same thing. [/p]
  10. ARCHIVED-Priestbane Guest

    Lornick wrote:
    [p] What he said. My hair is grey these days... It's just what it was called for the first 5 years of everquest gaming and lore. =) Even the devs call it no drop on occasion.[/p][p]And Topanga: Yes, our experiences have been different, which is part of what make personality and expectations different. I would also submit that the +parry in the strength line, however, is also subpar, adding less than its weight in points to anyone's avoidance capacity. And no AE oneshot flattens me, so bouncing in and out for a res isn't a deciding factor on a 10s duration slash, that I could take the AE for just by darting in to hit the slash. If I'm already timing because the AE is that harsh, then I'm timing the resses too.[/p][p]Really though... enjoy it! If the strength line makes you happy, and makes you feel as if you are contributing more and getting more out of your gameplay experience... more power to you! All I'm saying are MY reasons for not going down the line. For me, it's a boring line whose biggest difference to me was the 50 points of strength. It might be different if I were a DPS bard more often... there's less buffs up around hitpoints and resistances in non-MT groups. But I'm not.[/p]
  11. ARCHIVED-Winterborne Guest

    Alright, I know it's a little late to be said, but hey, I'm a little late on the thread. (Ha! I crack me up!) Bunnies, kangaroos, ants-in-the-pants-have-to-jump-around-guy! Whysp is right, knock it off. Or I will summon Innoruuk to trip you. He hates you anyway. Almost as much as I do.
  12. ARCHIVED-Topa Guest

    Sorschae@Venekor wrote:
    The parry ability on the Strength line is certainly infinitely better then the parry ability of the Agility line... Or the increase in block chance from the Stamina line... Considering it buffs the Tank (in addition to the rest of the group), buffing a Dirges defense/parry/block is not going to help the raid to any noteworthy degree. [p]Sorschae@Venekor wrote: [/p]
    The idea of what I was saying it that if you are timing aoes and know one is about to hit you could use Turnstrike to ensure that your rez goes off uninterrupted, I used the example of dying, but there are other interrupting factors. Interrupting factors could include fast ticking dot causing death (like Zylphax, Pumpkin Headed Horseman or Treyloth), a knock back/up (like Lord Vyemm, or Wuoshi), a stun or charm (like Wuoshi or Gardener), etc. If one is timing these aoes and for whatever reason there is a dead body near the mob one could Turnstrike and know that they are safe to rez or group rez without being interrupted or possibly dying. The same thing can be said for Bladedance if you are rezzing your group you could easily throw up Bladedance and ensure that your group will get up and have time to be healed while under the protection of aoe immunity. None of the other lines offer comparable utility when it comes to raiding, being able to advance Scout HOs? Being able to group Stealth? Making a target immune to knockdown (though I would say this one seems to have the most potential for implementation)? [p]Sorschae@Venekor wrote: [/p]
    Thanks. All I'm saying is that in my experience a raid force will benefit more from a Dirge spec'd Strength/Wisdom then one spec'd toward the other lines. And I am offering counterpoints to defend the strengths that you are dismissing or discrediting of the Strength line.
  13. ARCHIVED-Winterborne Guest

    As I read my way through this "blog" thing, I notice you have an unnatural fascination for paladins. I have a comment. Ptht! These queens of Quellious are too preoccupied with their own illuminated visage, reflected in their shiny plate mail, to give anyone else a moments notice. They love their god, they love their heroic nature, but mostly...they love their hair. Obviously they love to hop like kangaroos too. You should waste no more time pining for the affections of someone who could only adore an identical twin! Now if you'll excuse me, I see a paladin and I must put this itching powder in their armor.
  14. ARCHIVED-Crimson Dragon Guest

    and here i thought that paladins were followers of mithaniel marr. quellious is for monks. and me. because tranquil trance is fun!
  15. ARCHIVED-Winterborne Guest

    Perhaps you are right. Marr appears to be a paladin, lord of valor and all that, but it gets confusing because he supposedly created barbarians (who choose to follow him) and they aren't really the paladin type (at least not in EQ1 where all this crazy lore originated). And what of high elf paladins, do they follow Marr or are they toadies of Tunare? Frogloks? Peons of Prexus? Kaka of Karana? Dwarves? Champions of the Vertically Challenged? All I know is Quellious used to be an option for paladins, but if monks would prefer to be the "queens of Quellious" then by all means substitute my phrasing to read "moppets of Marr."
  16. ARCHIVED-Whysprr_Wyrd Guest

    [p] Counts of cute? Dukes of dreamy? [/p][p]You did NOT see me type that. [/p][p]Whysp[/p]
  17. ARCHIVED-Winterborne Guest

    *sigh* Well I guess someone has to like them.
  18. ARCHIVED-Priestbane Guest

    Topanga@Everfrost wrote:
    [p]Well, no, not infinitely better. Some marginal tenth of a percent better. Better for the group sure? Enough to notice? Not really.[/p][p] [/p][p]I was right with you though on your defense of your points though, right up until that last line. Why is it when I counter and say my reasons for going down the lines I prefer (and others may prefer?) I am thus dismissing or discrediting them? I am doing neither. I am offering my opinion, which frankly, is MASSIVELY in the minority. I understand and see why people like and want the strength line. For me, it is boring and flat, and 90% of the time useless. The other 10% of the time where it is useful, for me, is much more adequately addressed by tactics. I'm NOT fighting in the Emerald Halls. I'm NOT fighting the pumpkin headed horseman. I *am* raiding. My raids succeed. I am an asset not a liability. I *will not* have others tell me how I *must* play, particularly when it's not a defining factor. [/p]
  19. ARCHIVED-Topa Guest

    Sorschae@Najena wrote:
    What I was saying was better for the group would mean that it is not "subpar"... its slightly better for personal parry and it helps by adding that same bonus to the whole group, so I guess its atleast x6 better since it helps 6 people as opposed to 1 person. The arguement of it being infinitely better was because it is buffing the Main Tank, who is the person who is tanking, who can actually can make use of parry. The degree to which it helps will vary depending on the tank's gear and other buffs and the content being tanked, but given that the MT dirge generally isn't tanking much for a raid force, buffing personal parry almost always worse in comparison. Sorschae@Najena wrote:
    I'm not going to tell you how to play your character. Clearly I can't offer a counter arguement to: I don't like line A, I do like line B; that is your opinion which you are more than entitled to. But other than not likeing the Strength line there has really been no evidence presented other than dislike and preferance to support an alternative choice. Which again is not to say that you "*must*" spec a certain way, but it would be interesting to hear what aspects of another line are the influencing your preference. What I am saying is that, dismissing personal preferance, a Strength/Wisdom set up offers more to a raid force then the other lines (Especially the Stamina and Agility lines). I approach Dirge as a support/utility class first, and dps class second and thus would strongly value the Strength, Wisdom and Stamina lines as the more conventionally appropriate lines for a raiding Dirge. I do not doubt that your raids succeed, I do not doubt that you are an asset to your group and raid force. I did say that I was suprised that a mob's aoe had never held you back from defeating it. But obviously I'm not in your raid force, I dont know what you raid or how your raid force performs and I'm not going to call you a liar, so I will take your word on it. I do know there are alot of rough aoes in this game though, from personal experience some have held me and my raid forces back, and I'm under the impression that many raids do benefit from having bards with aoe immunity. Maybe your statements were not intended as such or I was misreading what you were saying but it seemed your counterpoints were "dismissing or discrediting" the strengths of the line. By saying that the added strength is the "biggest difference"; that a 10 sec immunity every minute and 30 sec group immunity can be replaced as one "can mostly get away with claymore/ethereal signets"; that buffing your MT's parry is "subpar" to buffing your own, it very much reads like you are dismissing some strong abilities that the strength line provides. Looking at the 1st rank abilities: we'd be comparing 16 Strength versus 20 Agility or 24 Stamina, 28 Intellegence and 32 Wisdom, . This would be an area of personal preference, I suppose, I think since Strength is our most important stat that buffing it would be alteast as strong as buffing the the Agility, Stamina and Wisdom. You said, "it's a boring line whose biggest difference to me was the 50 points of strength," I wasn't sure if this was a reference to the increased Harl's or the 1st rank ability or the combination, but either way I suppose as far as buffing stats go, buffing strength is pretty strong. As far as the 2nd rank abilities, the attacks each line offer, I could see those being sort of a toss up as far as abilities I would like to have. I already explained what I thought was useful about Turnstrike; but I definitely wouldn't mind having Bump for personal dps. The Rapier attack is pretty good, though there aren't an overwhelming number of good Rapiers in the higher end of this game. The shield attack isn't that impressive since its ability doesn't effect epics, the bowshot is useless. Comparing the 3rd rank abilities of each line, the strenght line's Parry buff is better than the agility's, yet you said it was "subpar". The other 3rd rank abilities include: enhanced out of combat runspeed, personal parry, personal block chance, and group combat skills. Of the 5, again from a maxing raid performance point of view, I would say that group combat skills is the best, then group parry, then the two personal buffs and then the runspeed. Given that it is the 2nd best of 5, I would object that it is actually above par. For 4th rank abilities, I would say the Intellegence line wins out, with its increase to group dps, depending on group I may rank Allegro as the second best, if in MT group with 3 healers it's a bit of a contribution, followed by the agility line's Poison, then Double Attack and probably Harl's is the worst (For raiding the Double attack is probably worse if you are dps group dirge and actually run Harls to buff the group). I admit increaced Harl's is weak. And looking at the final abilities of each line again I find that the stength line's ability is probably the 2nd best of the 5 (debatably the best depending on the content you are raiding). I mean even if it would only be helpful "10% of the time," it still brings alot more to the table then group stealth ever would. I have yet to encounter any situations where the coin flip or immunity to knockdown would be more helpful. My reasons for posting an opposing view point is mainly because I feel like alot of people post asking for ideas on AA set ups, and looking for information on which set ups are the "best" ones to choose for filling their role in whatever facet of the game they are playing in. My general understanding of these class forums is to participate in discussion about the different aspects of the class, including AA lines. When the discussion of whether or not the Strength line was worth specing came up in this thread, I felt like my experiences and reasoning behind my selection could contribute to the conversation. All I'm trying to do is present an explaination as to why (from my perspective and personal use of the lines) most raiding Dirges spec to Strength/Wisdom. As I said at the beginning of this post, it would be interesting to hear what other abilities you're finding to be more desirable.
  20. ARCHIVED-Whysprr_Wyrd Guest

    [p]Could I take a point of privilege on my blog thread and ask that this particular discussion terminate here, declaring victory however you wish? [/p][p]Those who've read the blog will have noted that I've taken a variety of positions on the controversial issues of the day, including: [/p][p]1. That troubadours need considerable assistance to achieve 'silly'. [/p][p]2. That the constant microdissection of AA choices for a raiding dirge who also groups every three weeks with a group (consisting of a defiler, inquisitor, shadowknight, necromancer and brigand to always seem to want to go to remote evil temples to ancient, horrible deities) and who has 78 AA points to spend is tedious beyond words. [/p][p]3. That most popular music since the 1930s has been vapid and incomprehensible, giving myself the 'instant dinosaur curmudgeon' label. [/p][p]4. That flame-wars, unless wittily conducted, are annoying and unhelpful. and:[/p][p]5. That raiding, though perhaps part of a balanced diet, like broccoli, is something best taken in small doses, unlike chocolate ice cream, which just breaks the analogy all to pieces so I'll stop there. [/p][p]As well as a bunch more, but it's actually 2,4, and 5 that matter here, I just threw in the others to get in a couple Cheap Shots. I'll run while the targets are stunned. [/p][p]It would seem, though, that I might well have a shot at this year's Irony Awards, Internet Division; since something that's only a couple bits of invective from being a flame war about AA choices for raiding has broken out on my bloody blog-thread. If anyone wants to send in the nomination, please do. This is so ironic that I'd have guessed it was a practical joke, except that's inconsistent with the personalities involved, who, did, mostly, hold the extra invective, so there's some mercy in the world. [/p][p]While thoughtful readers will be able to figure out which side of the current discussion I'd come down on, doing so would NOT, tactically, achieve the goal of expunging the phenomenon. So, I won't. If you want to move the discussion elsewhere, I'll probably come in hammer-and-tongs -- and get squashed like a bug. I also realize it's my fault for not diverting the topic with another fascinating blog-entry, however dreaded by the mass of readers. All I can say about that is I've been doing some other EQ-related writing that I think equally worthwhile and that I expect to be able to talk explicitly about Real Soon Now -- this has been true for six months so don't hold your collective breath. [/p][p]At any rate, I'm begging you -- just like with that group the other night in no nevermind I didn't say that -- to let this one rest. [/p][p]Grumpily,[/p][p]Whysp[/p]