[Dev Attention Please] Warlock Ceiling Issues

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Mogrim, Mar 21, 2016.

  1. Veta Well-Known Member

    In my opinion, if the opposing class is so much stronger then why not just betray? If the pros of betraying obviously outweight the cons, then you should. Otherwise, you are being a detriment to your raid force by not maximizing. You can still be a wizard and work on issues for warlocks, unless im unaware of some golden rule.

    Edit: Then you would also not have to worry about the possibility of any warlock cloak lag.
  2. Jokirr Member

    If there is a golden rule, nobody told me about it :(.
    And sure he could, but some have so much time invested into one side of the class that they don't feel they can preform as well as the other class even if it's the stronger choice.
  3. Yards Well-Known Member

    Fc doesn't need to be buffed up just simply changed so that it scales and can continue to be a useful temp for later expansions.
    DoomDrake likes this.
  4. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    Let me summarize what you just said: "Focused Casting is fine the way it is, as long as they rework Warlocks because it practically does nearly nothing for end-game-Warlocks anymore."

    Do you see a problem with what you just said? Cause I do.

    And then finally it comes out. The real solutions to Warlock issues are "well just betray" or "maybe they'll fix the class instead of fixing Focused Casting because Focused Casting practically does almost nothing now".

    The issue here isn't "does Mogrim do well against players he raids with whom he significantly outgears?" If you can't get to the philosophy of the issue, you're missing the entire point. Posting a few parses without context and then slapping yourself on the back suggesting that you've figured out a riddle is just embarrassing. It's like posting the yearly-take-home income of two different people, without posting their hourly wage and total hours worked in a year, and basing your entire decision of who makes more for their work based solely on the yearly-take-home.

    If I'm outparsing our ranger on a night where the ranger has no dirge and our raid isn't complete and those numbers get posted, you guys would be banging pots outside your computer rooms demanding for an accounting to be made. The fact that the parses that are posted are almost always from an "ideal situation" type group which is more than can be said for others is something that people within my guild know, but the people who aren't don't.

    So looking at me doing 450mil on some parse, where the next highest few people maybe had no chanter or maybe had no bard, and drawing some sort of huge conclusions on it... well thats just plain silly.

    These are the facts:

    1) I think there is valid reason to worry a little bit about Conjs. I think they need help too, at least with how stuff scales/shares/etc. Mechanics sort of screw them as well in the long term, if NOTHING gets changed.
    2) T1 scouts definitely have it best, in ideal situations. The mechanics and itemizations avail to them are unbelievably friendly. 1 extra useful ethereal, along with the fact that they get great resets of things like Assassinate/Snipershot make T1 scouts in ideal situations absolutely head and shoulders above ALL mages.
    3) I think the fact that FB scales AND resets with the hammer will contribute to some serious long-term scaling gaps between Wizards and Warlocks, and this is already being shown by the fact that Entroy betrayed from Warlock to Wizard with the hammer, and promptly went up roughly 20-30% damage.
    4) I hesitate to comment too much on Necros, but the long term scaling issue is also friendlier to a Necro with a hammer due to the fact that Undead Horde resets, even if the hammer fervor doesn't share with the swarm.

    This post was contextualized from the start as being forward-thinking and focused on the future issues and significant scaling barriers that Warlocks run into. From there on, a lot of people who struggle to understand that concept have either failed at reading comprehension OR intentionally tried to derail the thread out of malice (Most I can't decide which it is, but there are a few that are likely malice, like one of the guys that has posted a few digs in this thread rages practically every day in open channels trying to start fights... how is he still around?)

    But the long story short is. A lot of people are trying to argue with my premise that says "hey, the long term issues are definitely here, and I can already hit some ceilings, which means there will be issues in the not too distant future" by saying "Hey! I don't see any issues in the present/while looking at past parses/while looking at parses of players that DON'T fit the context of the concerns Mogrim posted".

    Aka, I'm saying... If X + Y + Z, Then Ceiling is reached for Warlocks, and they really can't grow anymore.
    Entropy is saying X+Y+Z was true for me, so switched to Wizard, and Ceiling definitely got a lot higher.
    A few others are saying "Here is a parse of X+Y, but NOT Z, and I don't see your conclusion, so therefore you're wrong".
    The problem is that these other posts aren't really testing my hypothesis, and therefore their conclusions don't make sense.
    DoomDrake likes this.
  5. Veta Well-Known Member

    I gave up 3 ancients (conj side) and my dps went up =( sadly. I did it over the weekend, during the end of March, and ran numerous amounts of pugs to get situationally aware of possible encounters and to work on which abilities to use (anyone who has played both summoners know that the abilities share the same icons for both classes which work completely opposite for each). However, I was already familiar with necro as I have played it longer than I have conj.

    Anyone can list x and y fixes for any classes, its still a step-by-step process and a priority order on what gets fixed no matter how popular a thread gets. By the time the warlocks are even considered for any type of change you could have already betrayed and got used to it. Once the problem is solved, then just betray back. If warlocks are indeed receiving a 20-30% increase in dps just by betraying, ideally you could betray and slack 20-30% and still parse the same while also trying to become more effective for the time being; therefore, in the long run bettering your raid force overall.
  6. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    Aniathor would've never betrayed to Necro. Therefore, I will call you a quitter and continue the good fight. ;)
    Anunnaki likes this.
  7. Veta Well-Known Member

    Ouch. Long story short, I was originally necro =). When Attrition reformed into The Punished, one of the necros became an officer. He said he didn't want anymore necros so it was to betray or leave. Therefore, my journey as conj began.
  8. Entropy Well-Known Member

    Btw, I don't think it's 20-30% difference consistently between wizard and warlock. I think I had a controlled fight in a situation where a wizard should slightly outperform (ST mob) anyway.

    It's probably closer to 10-15% effective difference, in favor of the wizard, with current gear options.
  9. Anunnaki Active Member

    I'm with you on this one.
  10. DoomDrake Well-Known Member

    Yep that's exactly what Entropy did .. so did 1 warlock in my guild ... I do not like flipping hence I stayed on same grass but instead created twink beastlord :)
  11. Arco Active Member

    No, I'm saying that Lock shouldn't be a class that relies on one temp in order to compete, and that they're "meh" when it's not available.

    I would prefer DBG just do something to stop the stat inflation....
    Stop making us hit caps... then no ability/conversion issues.
  12. Veta Well-Known Member

    Heh, you two make it seem like I completely gave up on the conj class because I betrayed.

    A guild is only a strong as it's weakest link. I will do what I need to do in order to better my guild and help us progress, which seems to be working so far.
  13. kluxor Well-Known Member

    Perhaps do what they did to scouts...pretty much everything that once added to CB now adds to pot instead. Then mogrim can stop complaining about how useless focused casting is. Correct me if i'm wrong too, FC currently is giving you 750pot? How many scouts would trade some of their best temps for a 750pot temp? Or for the 12:1 prestige conversion that mages get? Or parse 200m+ higher than everyone else on an AE encounter while still maintaining highly respectable numbers on single target? And don';t sit there and say its cause you had an optimal group set up while the rest of the raid didn't, that'd total BS. I currently get blown out on the same encounter by warlocks and I have an amazing group set up...which I don't complain about cause I'm ok with losing to an AE based dps
  14. Yards Well-Known Member

    Press buttons better imho.
  15. Anunnaki Active Member

  16. Entropy Well-Known Member

    While I really enjoy my myth hammer, it's purely a selfish pleasure. By introducing things like the reset and fervor ethereals to the game, the devs fundamentally changed class balance. They added a new dimension required in an already complex problem. They then doubled down on that with the myth hammer.

    I'm not going to hold my breath for them to do a complete scrub of all abilities to determine which ones are deemed too powerful to reset. They already took a stab at it once and only got it partially right.

    I would be in favor of a complete rework of the myth hammer, including potentially removing the reset mechanic and just giving a constant fervor buff (20%?) to the wielder. It'd hurt my parse, yes, but it'd be healthier for game balance, and that's more important long term.
    Maldek and DoomDrake like this.
  17. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    Well, there is something extremely fresh about playing a "react fast to a proc" variable that helped extend my interest in this game. Few things have been able to change my robotic-like flow through my rotations like having multiple wrenches thrown in the mix, in a good way.
  18. Entropy Well-Known Member

    Agree completely. It's one of the reasons I enjoyed wizard more than warlock - it's a higher skill cap class.

    Doesn't change the unfortunate fact that a global reset proc makes it far more difficult to balance classes. Turning the myth hammer into a constant fervor buff removes any skill associated with the small fervor window or dealing with dynamic casting orders and predictive analysis, but it'd get rid of a lot of the balance issues they're going to keep having.
  19. Montag Well-Known Member

    Allowing focused casting to temporarily increase (or better yet remove) the cb cap for the warlock seems like a great solution.
  20. Entropy Well-Known Member

    Too much of a hassle and may set a bad precedent re: "hard caps and classes whining about unfairness".

    At this point, just making it go straight 75% potency is probably easiest/best solution.
    Anunnaki likes this.