I just saw someone else put a couple pictures on discord that are kind of related to this same topic. (At least to the one point I made that you are disagreeing with.) It showed the first raid namer as a carebear and the trash as an attack helicopter. Pretty funny and kind of accurate. You think that is good? I don't. To be clear, I'm not suggesting that the first raid named should be made harder. It's the first one, after all. But, trash is called trash for a reason. It's inherently a time sink which is ok. Artificial mechanics to slow it down even further are what I don't find fun. You obviously disagree. Fair enough.
Huh, your experience was different from mine although I'll give one qualifier. During the summer eth events we always PREFERRED to have a tank....as long as they were geared to the level of the content. A few of the PuGs I was in for the event we advertised and picked up a tank who was laughably and grossly undergeared for the job. They were expert zones after all. Even then I don't recall ever kicking someone out. We just knew that the real aggro/tanking was going to rest with one of the dps because there was no way it was going to happen otherwise. (I acknowledge that not all PuGs are patient though.)
This is a case of Daybreak and the Devs thinking that this is their game and not ours. They want us to play the game the way THEY want us to play it, instead of letting us play it the way we want to play it. If they want to do it the right way, they should just make the stuff tougher to tank on non-tanks and not put in insta death mechanics. In raids, it's not that big a deal, because most of the time non-tanks are just one shot anyway. It's a pretty stupid mechanic to put into heroics though. Not enough tanks to run all the groups. This game does not have the population for you to dictate how we play it anymore, Devs.
I am all for tanks being made relevant, a tank should always be a better choice than a DPS. That said, I hate one shot mechanics as a lazy way of doing things. All modern MMOs like to give flexibility when any class can play any role if set up right - I am not a fan of that, but one thing that I am a fan of is that in all those games SOMEONE needs to be spec'd out to be the tank role. So they always have the need for a tank and they manage this without using one shot mechanics for all non tank spec'd classes
I like the idea of other classes once a 'Blue' moon being used to 'tank' a mob in a certain encounter because script calls for it several recent Raid mobs have had this feature, but as rule of thumb Tanks should be the only class that can hold Monster for long periods of time. Yeah sometimes a dps class may rip the monster and the tank should be able get it back before 'death-touch' kicks in but non-tank classes that hold it for prolong time should pay the price. So this expac is based on the gods planes of existence where monsters have strange powers, are freaks of nature, and mythological monsters such as the Hydra and Medusa are not natural beings, but divine entities and some may have death-touch powers. Knowing all this adventurers should plan accordingly and bring right tools to a fight. If mob needs to be dispelled to take damage you bring class that can dispel, if a mob has a constant power drain you bring class that can feed power, and a new monster that death-touches non-tank classes then you bring tank to hold it or can bathe it your salty tears of denial. Those that fail to plan plan to fail.
i like this idea, honestly however i cant plan for fighters to magically appear out of thin air when its go time, there simply isn't going to be enough fighters to go around, (or alt fighters, or people wanting to play / have the responsibility of being a fighter) and the option of becoming a fighter myself is out of the question, i have time for one main for my raid group. so my options are 1.) Rail against this metaphorical cage placed around me that doesn't let me play the way i want too regardless of difficulty. 2.) Kidnap a fighter from the shrinking pool of fighters for random heroics. (which can be 2+ hours of Group of 5 LFT) 3.) Roll as a fighter myself, playing something i don't want to play just so i can gear up my main character. (gearing 2 toons) 4.) make someone ELSE play a fighter so we can do heroics even if they do not want to play a fighter just so we can gear up for raid. (make them gear up 2 toons) OR .. take away the death touch to non fighters, and allow the possible tank pool to grow thus forming more groups. getting more fun, more gear and more things done. OR spam lfg for hours and hours every day maybe getting a group maybe not. or worse. getting a group and stuck in no fighter limbo for hours before the group dissolves.
Does anyone else notice that the only people who are pro "Death touch" mechanic are the ultra casuals who don't run heroics anyway? Or they're the casuals who only run heroics with their small group of friends and never PUG? They want the "death touch" mechanic for RP reasons? If you want RP reasons for the death touch, then just RP your own character and refuse to tank as a mage because "That's a tank's job". That works for me. That allows you to play the game the way you want to play it, and it allows someone else to play the game the way they want to play it. Imagine if they lowered the HP on every encounter to allow your RP self to be able to kill it doing 1/10th the DPS of a min/max top tier raid toon, most of those raid toons would kill them in 1 shot. (Which is basically what T1 heroic encounters are like 1-2 months into an expac, which is why DBG now added panic scripts to heroic mobs).
so if a tank died due to lag or what ever you the bosses start deathtouching everyone in the party. You used to be able to recover alot easyer but not anymore
oh? so lets see, if you implent it so threat means upping damage, that doesn't fix the problem of 'we don't need you, move along please'. and what 'utility' are you going to give me as a fighter that isn't going to have someone else complaining that I can do X plus tank, so why bring me? what are you going to give me? mana resotration? then why bring a chanter or bard? thier dps? hah we got assassins and rangers and wizards and warlocks for that. the problem is this game has too many classes. the powers are spread out too much, so that trying to give anyone more of anything takes it away from someone else, unless it's just straight up damage, which then means the pure damagers complain. just like they did when we got our super ofensive ability, and they screamed about Zerkers and SKs being 'Gods'. I am here to tank. that's my job. your job is to dps. Everytime they've tried to 'fix' tanks by giving us more dps or utility, every other class screams about it. they give us a super offensive stance that kills our threat so we can be dps, you complain. they give us utility abilities, people complain cause we can 'tank + X.' of course peopel didn't complain when dps classes coudl do 'dps plus tank' or when illys could 'support plus tank'. and we got tossed off, except then peopel fussed about the 'Expert zones' being trouble cause 'there's no tanks!' yeah. you drove them all off with your 'we don't need you, the swash or the conjy can tank.' So now, you best damn have one. and maybe now those that want to tank, will tank. since they won't get shoved aside by a dps that can tank instead.
maybe i can explain this one for you to understand easier. summer ethereal event : LFG TANK 5/6 - could recruit anyone that could actually tank the zones. not very picky as long as they could actually hold aggro. PoP Heroics week 1 : LFG TANK must be Fighter , 5/6 ready to roll ! .. 2 hours later.. LFG TANK - probably anyone in this group could tank. but cant because of the death touch bs.... group breaks up. 5 disgruntled people that dont have time to mainswitch, or that dreaded curseword "alt" eventually loose interest if you sit in lfg for hours and hours right? we'll see how further weeks pan out.. but it doesn't look all that bright and happy simply because people do not want to mainswitch
No but it at least evens the playing field somewhat. Someone needs to be the set "Tank" for a group. Making threat increase damage at least means that the not high-damage Tank classes aren't made instantly redundant by the nature of the fact that their lack of damage is a reason NOT to take them over a Swashy/Brig. There's plenty of options. The simplest would be accuracy and strikethrough (Which several Fighters already have access to). Though that doesn't mean there aren't other things that could be done. Heck, something like an aura that diverts some damage dealt to party/raid members to the Fighter (From ST attacks only) so instead of getting DT'd and murdered or 1-2 shot from a raid mob, the Fighter can buy time for him to regain aggro that gets lost temporarily. (I.e. Something akin to Sentry Watch but damage mitigation rather than death prevent) Really, you just gotta not take someone else's niche and give it to the Fighters. Or really, just sort out the DPS divide between a team who has a Pally/Guard vs one that has a Bruiser/Swashy, so that when someone needs a tank, they don't immediately overlook several Fighter classes from the get go. Since that's the main crux of why not just take a DPS built for tanking, is that they can threat because their damage is high enough to allow it and then they are also then better than more traditional hate spam tanks because more damage also means faster kills = more loot, more progress, more fun. As a side note, yes, I'm aware that there's another solution to this issue, which is by reducing threat caused by damage and upping threat caused by taunts thus making it harder for DPS to maintain aggro compared to a Fighter, but this can all to easily make threat a non-factor by making it too easy to hold aggro (See: WoW - After they did the "Boost threat gain for tanks" thing, losing aggro stopped being a thing outside of scripts that cleared threat tables) Well, when you think about it, without Death Touch invalidating non-Fighter Tanks, there's actually very few "Pure DD" classes in the game. Wizard, Warlock, Beastlord, Ranger and Assassin are the only ones that don't typically have capacity to fill another role (Though the latter do technically have defensive stances). Illy/Coercer + Troub/Dirge are Damage + Support Swashy/Brig are Damage/Tank Conji/Necro can be Damage/Tank or Damage/Support (Via heals from Hydromancer/Ooze) - Though, it seems like the class is set up to be the "Jack of All Trades" class... Just happens that they're T1 DPS instead... And then, there's that whole thing about how if you make hate = damage boost for team, instead of just directly buffing "Tanks" damage then there's no competition with the DD classes, since you're not able to do the damage, you merely are able to amplify the team's DD's when you're tanking. The only concern is about if you let these tanks be able to play as a DD via their threat reductions allowing them the choice of Tanking or DPS (Like with Swashy) while pure damage classes are stuck with only one role... (Yet, they don't seem to be complaining about Rogues/Chanters/Bards whom already fulfil DPS and other roles. In fact, I barely see any Rogues and mostly note Rangers, Beastlords and Conji's everywhere...)
I'm oddly reminded of the scene from Homecoming where Parker says that he's nothing without the suit Stark gave him and Stark replies that if he's nothing without it then he doesn't deserve it. That's a line that versions of have been appearing in various places for a long time, but it seems applicable in a backwards way. If tanks can't survive without a cheap mechanic then they don't deserve the mechanic. Instead, what tanks and everyone else playing the game deserve is for the array of problems requiring the cheap mechanic to be fixed. Then the mechanic is a non issue. I'll be over here holding me breath.
I don't really have an opinion on the topic of the thread, but with this line you pretty much proved Rainmare right. Tanking was the fighters niche, and it was taken by everyone else. Now fighters ask what they can get in return, and everyone screams NOT MY NICHE!
yep .. in the end, troubs can do so much now. DPS with ascensions, tank with mit gear and hate mod and AV, and of course support. Almost needed in every group while tanks are low on the utility side, even paladin cannot really group heal anymore .. and dps wise we are ok .. but not good enough to be brought along just for that so please let us what tanks are good for (should be good for at least ) --> tanking. It's sad they need to put the deathtouch ability for tanks to stay relevant ... but if that's what is needed for now, I'm ok coz I want to tank. and maybe more people will start playing tanks again
Solution?: Maybe leave the fighter check script in, but it doesn't have to be death-touch spam does it? Couldn't the punishment for having no fighter be something else aside from a nearly-guaranteed wipe? Maybe the mob just becomes really unpleasant to fight, like doubling its hp so you'd REALLY rather have a fighter if you can, but if you absolutely cannot find a tank then it is still at least possible to finish without one if you just cannot be bothered to wait. So for those groups that are totally determined to get heroics done RIGHT NOW instead of waiting for a tank to log in or respond to LFG ads, they still can... It'll just suck a lot more. *If you're concerned about how to fit such a mechanic into the world so that it makes sense like what was attempted with the current death-touch system (like "xxx crushes you, a fighter would have been able to take that kind of hit!")... Perhaps the bosses confidence/morale is increased when he notices there is no fighter present to pester him? *"Grimror notices the imbalance in your group's composition and seizes the opportunity to use his full power".
I like this idea, instead of creating situations where content cannot be attempted when missing a class it simply makes it faster to have a tank. Could be a debuff only tanks get, or like suggested above just the encounter recognizing no fighter is present.
I find this whole threat hilarious. There was all this complaining about classes not being useful anymore and then, when it looks like DBG is actually doing something about restoring the utility of classes, people complain. Damned if you do; damned if you don't.
The few people i know who are long time fighters Do not pug ever. fighter are rare so they can be extremely picky. All these changes will not make fighter appear out of thin air. Also one reason there are so few fighters? How many fighters do you need one a raid 2 max? Also fighters get there gear quickly because of less competition for gear unlike dps who are usually rolling on gear against 2-3 others. So tanks gear out first then have no reason to run heroics any more. Leading to a shortage of heroic tanks an a ton of dps and utility sitting idle by trying to gear up there mains for raids. Also another reason why you saw so many 4-5 summoner +healer groups last xpack is alot of tanks so not like group with summoners because that means either the tanks has to work Really hard to keep agro Or the summoner has to hold their dps back so much that a group would be better of with a dps class with more ways of mitigating hate who can actualy dps to their full potential.
